Rights for this book: Public domain in the USA. This edition is published by Project Gutenberg. Originally issued by Project Gutenberg on 2018-10-05. To support the work of Project Gutenberg, visit their Donation Page. This free ebook has been produced by GITenberg, a program of the Free Ebook Foundation. If you have corrections or improvements to make to this ebook, or you want to use the source files for this ebook, visit the book's github repository. You can support the work of the Free Ebook Foundation at their Contributors Page. The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (15 of 26): Hearings Vol. XV (of 15), by Warren Commission This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org/license Title: Warren Commission (15 of 26): Hearings Vol. XV (of 15) Author: Warren Commission Release Date: October 5, 2018 [EBook #58030] Language: English *** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION *** Produced by MWS, Curtis Weyant, Charlie Howard, and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at http://www.pgdp.net Transcriber’s Note: Cover created by Transcriber and placed in the Public Domain. INVESTIGATION OF THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY HEARINGS Before the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy P URSUANT T O E XECUTIVE O RDER 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. R ES . 137, 88 TH C ONGRESS , a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas Volume XV UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE WASHINGTON, D.C. U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY C HIEF J USTICE E ARL W ARREN , Chairman S ENATOR R ICHARD B. R USSELL S ENATOR J OHN S HERMAN C OOPER R EPRESENTATIVE H ALE B OGGS R EPRESENTATIVE G ERALD R. F ORD M R . A LLEN W. D ULLES M R . J OHN J. M C C LOY J. L EE R ANKIN , General Counsel Assistant Counsel F RANCIS W. H. A DAMS J OSEPH A. B ALL D A VID W. B ELIN W ILLIAM T. C OLEMAN , Jr. M ELVIN A RON E ISENBERG B URT W. G RIFFIN L EON D. H UBERT , Jr. A LBERT E. J ENNER , Jr. W ESLEY J. L IEBELER N ORMAN R EDLICH W. D A VID S LAWSON A RLEN S PECTER S AMUEL A. S TERN H OWARD P. W ILLENS A A Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of Justice. Staff Members P HILLIP B ARSON E DWARD A. C ONROY J OHN H ART E LY A LFRED G OLDBERG M URRAY J. L AULICHT A RTHUR M ARMOR R ICHARD M. M OSK J OHN J. O’B RIEN S TUART P OLLAK A LFREDDA S COBEY C HARLES N. S HAFFER , Jr. Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission’s Report Preface The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XV; Hyman Rubenstein, a brother of Jack L. Ruby; Glen D. King, administrative assistant to the chief of the Dallas police; C. Ray Hall, an FBI agent who interviewed Ruby; Charles Batchelor, assistant chief of the Dallas police; Jesse E. Curry, chief of the Dallas police; M. W. Stevenson, deputy chief of the Dallas police; Elgin English Crull, city manager of Dallas; J. W. Fritz, captain in charge of the Dallas Homicide Bureau; Roland A. Cox, a Dallas policeman; Harold J. Fleming, vice president of the Armored Motor Car Service of Dallas, and Don Edward Goin, Marvin E. Hall and Edward C. Dietrich, employees of the Armored Motor Car Service; Capt. Cecil E. Talbert of the Dallas Police Department, who was in charge of the patrol division on November 26, 1963; Marjorie R. Richey, James Thomas Aycox, Thomas Stewart Palmer, Joseph Weldon Johnson, Jr., Edward J. Pullman, Herbert B. Kravitz, Joseph Rossi, Norman Earl Wright, Lawrence V Meyers, William D. Crowe, Jr., Nancy Monnell Powell, Dave L. Miller and Russell Lee Moore (Knight), former employees, business associates, friends, or acquaintances of Ruby; Eileen Kaminsky and Eva L. Grant, sisters of Ruby; George William Fehrenbach, a purported acquaintance of Ruby; Abraham Kleinman, Ruby’s accountant; Wanda Yvonne Helmick, an employee of a business associate of Ruby; Kenneth Lawry Dowe, who talked to Ruby over the telephone on November 23, 1963; T. M. Hansen, Jr., a Dallas police officer; Nelson Benton, a Dallas news reporter who spoke with Chief Curry on the morning of November 26; Frank Bellocchio, an acquaintance of Ruby, who spoke with him on November 23, 1963; Alfred Douglas Hodge, an acquaintance of Ruby; David L. Johnston, the justice of the peace who arraigned Oswald for the murder of President Kennedy and Officer Tippit, and who also gave testimony concerning Ruby’s whereabouts on November 22, 1963; Stanley M. Kaufman, Ruby’s attorney, who spoke to him on November 23; William S. Biggio and Clyde Franklin Goodson, Dallas police officers; Roger C. Warner, a Secret Service agent who participated in the investigation of the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald; Seth Kantor, Danny Patrick McCurdy, Victor F. Robertson, Jr., Frederic Rheinstein, Icarus M. Pappas, John G. McCullough, Wilma May Tice, John Henry Branch, William Glenn Duncan, Jr., Garnett Claud Hallmark, John Wilkins Newnam, Robert L. Norton, Roy A. Pryor, Arthur William Watherwax, Billy A. Rea, Richard L. Saunders, Thayer Waldo, Ronald Lee Jenkins, Speedy Johnson, and Roy E. Standifer, all of whom gave testimony concerning Ruby’s whereabouts on November 22 and/or November 23, 1963; William Kline and Oran Pugh, U.S. Customs officials who gave testimony regarding their knowledge of Oswald’s trip to Mexico; Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt, a photography expert with the FBI; and Bruce Ray Carlin, Mrs. Bruce Carlin, and Ralph Paul, acquaintances of Jack Ruby; Harry Tasker, taxicab driver in Dallas; Paul Morgan Stombaugh, hair and fiber expert, FBI; Alwyn Cole, questioned document examiner, Treasury Department; B. M. Patterson and L. J. Lewis, witnesses in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; Arthur Mandella, fingerprint expert, New York City Police Department; John F. Gallagher, FBI agent; and Revilo Pendleton Oliver, member of the council of the John Birch Society. Contents Page Preface v Testimony of— Hyman Rubenstein 1 William S. Biggio 48 Glen D. King 51 C. Ray Hall 62 Seth Kantor 71 William D. Crowe, Jr. 96 Charles Batchelor 114 Jesse E. Curry 124, 641 M. W. Stevenson 133 Elgin English Crull 138 J. W. Fritz 145 Roland A. Cox 153 Harold J. Fleming 159 Don Edward Goin 168 Marvin E. Hall 174 Cecil E. Talbert 182 Marjorie R. Richey 192 James Thomas Aycox 203 Thomas Stewart Palmer 206 Joseph Weldon Johnson, Jr 218 Edward J. Pullman 222 Herbert B. Kravitz 231 Joseph Rossi 235 Norman Earl Wright 244 Russell Lee Moore (Knight) 251 Edward C. Dietrich 269 Eileen Kaminsky 275 George William Fehrenbach 289 Eva L. Grant 321 Victor F. Robertson, Jr. 347 Frederic Rheinstein 354 Icarus M. Pappas 360 John G. McCullough 373 Abraham Kleinman 383 Wilma May Tice 388 Wanda Yvonne Helmick 396 Nancy Monnell Powell 404 Kenneth Lawry Dowe 430 T. M. Hansen, Jr. 438 Dave L. Miller 450 Nelson Benton 456 Frank Bellocchio 466 John Henry Branch 473 William Glenn Duncan, Jr. 482 Garnett Claud Hallmark 488 Alfred Douglas Hodge 494 David L. Johnston 503 Stanley M. Kaufman 513 Danny Patrick McCurdy 529 John Wilkins Newnam 534 Robert L. Norton 546 Roy A. Pryor 554 Arthur William Watherwax 564 Billy A. Rea 571 Richard L. Saunders 577 Thayer Waldo 585 Clyde Franklin Goodson 596 Ronald Lee Jenkins 600 Speedy Johnson 607 Roy E. Standifer 614 Roger C. Warner 619 Lawrence V . Meyers 620 William Kline 640 Oran Pugh 640 Bruce Ray Carlin 641 Mrs. Bruce Carlin 656 Ralph Paul 664 Harry Tasker 679 Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt 686 Paul Morgan Stombaugh 702 L. J. Lewis 703 Alwyn Cole 703 Revilo Pendleton Oliver 709 B. M. Patterson 744 Arthur Mandella 745 John F, Gallagher 746 Index to V olumes I-XV 753 EXHIBITS INTRODUCED Page Aycox Exhibit No. 1 206 Bellocchio Exhibit No. 1 469 Branch Exhibit No. 1 474 Carlin Exhibit No.: 1 655 2 655 3 655 4 655 Cole Exhibit No.: 1 704 2 704 3 704 4 704 5 704 6 704 7 705 8 706 9 706 Crowe Exhibit No.: 1 110 2 110 Crull Exhibit No. 1 140 Dowe Exhibit No.: 1 436 2 436 Duncan Exhibit No.: 1 483 2 484 Fehrenbach Exhibit No.: 1 295 2 311 3 312 4 317 5 317 6 314 7 318 Fleming Exhibit No. 1 160 Gallagher Exhibit No. 1 750 Goodson Exhibit No. 1 597 Hall (C. Kay) Exhibit No.: 1 66 2 66 3 68 4 67 Hall (Marvin E.) Exhibit No. 1 175 Hallmark Exhibit No. 1 489 Hansen Exhibit No.: 1 445 2 445 Helmick Exhibit No. 1 403 Hodge Exhibit No. 1 495 Jenkins Exhibit No. 1 601 Johnson Exhibit No. 1 614 Johnston Exhibit No.: 1 509 2 509 3 513 4 513 5 513 Kantor Exhibit No.: 1 75 2 83 3 92 4 92 5 93 6 94 7 94 8 94 Kaufman Exhibit No. 1 515 King Exhibit No.: 1 59 2 59 3 59 4 60 5 62 Kleinman Exhibit No. 1 387 Knight Exhibit No. 1 266 Kravitz Exhibit No. 1 234 McCullough Exhibit No.: 1 380 2 380 McCurdy Exhibit No. 1 529 Miller Exhibit No. 1 454 Newnam Exhibit No.: 1 537 2 538 3 538 4 535 Norton Exhibit No. 1 549 Oliver Exhibit No.: 1 713 2 713 3 717 4 722 5 723 6 732 7 737 8 738 9 741 10 741 11 743 12 743 Pappas Exhibit No.: 1 370 2 370 3 371 4 371 Patterson Exhibit: A 744 B 745 Powell Exhibit No.: 1 420 2 429 3 430 Pryor Exhibit No. 1 555 Pullman Exhibit No. 1 231 Rea Exhibit No. 1 573 Richey Exhibit No. 1 196 Robertson Exhibit No.: 1 354 2 354 Rossi Exhibit No. 1 241 Rubenstein Exhibit No.: 1 35 2 35 3 44 4 45 5 47 Saunders Exhibit No. 1 577 Shaneyfelt Exhibit No.: 8 687 9 687 10 687 11 687 12 687 13 687 14 687 15 689 16 689 17 690 18 690 19 690 20 690 21 690 22 690 23 692 24 694 25 696 26 697 27 698 28 698 29 698 30 698 31 698 32 698 33 698 34 700 35 700 36 701 Standifer Exhibit No. 1 615 Stombaugh Exhibit No.: 1 702 2 702 3 702 4 702 5 702 6 702 Talbert Exhibit No.: 1 186 2 186 Tice Exhibit No. 1 395 Waldo Exhibit No. 1 586 Wright Exhibit No. 1 250 Hearings Before the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy TESTIMONY OF HYMAN RUBENSTEIN The testimony of Hyman Rubenstein was taken at 9:20 a.m., on June 5, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Mr. G RIFFIN . My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the staff of the General Counsel’s Office of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized under the rules of procedure of the Commission to take your deposition here today, Mr. Rubenstein. I might tell you a little bit about the Commission before we go into the testimony. The Commission was established under an Executive order of President Johnson and under a joint resolution of Congress on November 29, 1963, to investigate and evaluate the facts and report back to President Johnson on the assassination of President Kennedy and the facts surrounding the murder of Lee Oswald. In asking you to come here today, we are particularly concerned with the information you may be able to bring to bear upon the murder of Lee Oswald. Now, under the authorization setting up this Commission by the President and by Congress, the Commission is authorized to promulgate certain rules of procedure, and pursuant to those rules of procedure, the Commission has authority to issue subpenas and to require witnesses to attend here. In pursuance of those rules we have sent you a letter. I want to ask you now if you did receive the letter. You are pointing to your inside coat pocket. Can you tell us when you received the letter from the Commission? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . I, that I, can’t tell you because I was gone out of town all last week, and I came in Monday night, and I didn’t open my mail until Tuesday morning. Mr. G RIFFIN . But you did see the letter on Tuesday. Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Definitely. It was too late for me to get here. Mr. G RIFFIN . The reason I ask is that you are privileged to have 3 days’ notice before you come here and I wanted to make sure we had given you the 3-day notice. Mr. R UBENSTEIN . It probably was there. Mr. G RIFFIN . Now, you are also entitled under the rules of the Commission to have an attorney with you if you desire, and I see you don’t have one here so I take it it is not your desire to have one. Incidentally, in the letter that we sent you did you get a copy of some rules of procedure? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . I wasn’t worried about it because I felt I have nothing to hide to tell you. Mr. G RIFFIN . All right. Do you have any questions that you want to ask about the general nature of what the proceeding will be before I administer the oath? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . No; but I think it is going to be very interesting. Mr. G RIFFIN . Let me ask you to raise your right hand if you will. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . I do. Mr. G RIFFIN . If you would, give the court reporter your name. Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Hyman Rubenstein. Mr. G RIFFIN . Where do you live, Mr. Rubenstein. Mr. R UBENSTEIN . 1044 Loyola Avenue. Mr. G RIFFIN . Is that in Chicago? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Chicago, 26. Mr. G RIFFIN . How long have you lived there? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . 6 years. Mr. G RIFFIN . Can you tell us when you were born? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . December 28, 1901. Mr. G RIFFIN . Where were you born? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Warsaw, Poland. Mr. G RIFFIN . When did you come to this country? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . When I was 2½ years old. Mr. G RIFFIN . That would have been in 1903? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . I don’t—all right, put it down, I don’t know. Mr. G RIFFIN . The only recollection, I take it, you have—— Mr. R UBENSTEIN . From my folks when they told us when they came here. Mr. G RIFFIN . What is your occupation at the present time? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . I am a salesman. Mr. G RIFFIN . Who do you work for? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . I work for Davidson and Uphoff. Mr. G RIFFIN . Where is that? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . 448 Mark Avenue, Clarendon Hills, Ill. Mr. G RIFFIN . What do you sell? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Florist supplies. Mr. G RIFFIN . What do those consist of? Mr. R UBENSTEIN Bird cages, stands, different things that the florists sell in their shops and greenhouses. Mr. G RIFFIN . Are you obliged to travel in the course of your employment? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Almost constantly. Mr. G RIFFIN . Can you give us a general idea of the area that you travel in? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Sure. Now, I cover Michigan. I have covered Wisconsin, Illinois, Minnesota, Iowa, Kentucky, and Tennessee. With different firms but related to the same field. Mr. G RIFFIN . How long have you been covering Michigan? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . 11, 12 years. Mr. G RIFFIN . You said now you cover Michigan. I take it at the present time—— Mr. R UBENSTEIN . This is a new firm I am with. Mr. G RIFFIN . At the present time you don’t cover any State other than Michigan? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . No; except this. In 1963 the firm I was with in New York, the Lewis Ribbon Co., merged with the International Artware Co. of Cleveland, so I had to go in business for myself. So, I still cover the same territory for myself as I did with Lewis Ribbon Co. in 1963. So I had a lot of money outstanding so I am trying to pick that up little by little as I am traveling through Illinois and eventually will travel through Wisconsin to pick up money I have coming from merchandise I have sold. Mr. G RIFFIN . When did you leave the Lewis Ribbon Co.? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . 1963; January 1st. Mr. G RIFFIN . You say you went into business for yourself? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Right. Mr. G RIFFIN . What business did you go into then? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Same business, ribbons. Mr. G RIFFIN . Were these sold to floral customers? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Right. The same customers I had before. Mr. G RIFFIN . When did you begin to work for the Davidson-Uphoff Co.? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Last month. Mr. G RIFFIN . I see. So between approximately last January and last month or January 1963 and last month, you were employed for yourself, is that correct? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Practically. Mr. G RIFFIN . Practically? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . I mean because I haven’t done much work since the incidents down in Dallas. Mr. G RIFFIN . I see. When you were employed for yourself did you travel in any States other than Michigan? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Yes; Illinois and Wisconsin. Mr. G RIFFIN . How much of your time was spent in each of those States? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . For one trip complete? In other words, if I had to make a State complete time, how much time would I spend in that State? Mr. G RIFFIN . In a typical 3-month period, for example. Mr. R UBENSTEIN . I could cover a State in 3 months. Mr. G RIFFIN . Do you recall where you were traveling in the fall of 1963, what State? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Yes; I had just come back from Michigan. Mr. G RIFFIN . Do you remember when you began traveling in Michigan? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . No; but I could have told you that if I had my records here. Mr. G RIFFIN . I wanted to get a little background on yourself before we go into some general questions. You say you came to this country when you were about 2½? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Yes. Mr. G RIFFIN . Did you come to Chicago? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . I don’t know. I don’t think we did. I think, of course, I think we stopped off in New York, and then I think we came to Chicago. My father was here first. Mr. G RIFFIN . How long was your father here? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . He—about a year. Mr. G RIFFIN . And you say you are not sure where you came to. Did you have a permanent home any place before you moved to Chicago? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . No. Mr. G RIFFIN . So your first permanent home in this country was in Chicago and I take it that would have been shortly after you arrived in the country? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Yes. Mr. G RIFFIN . Have you lived in Chicago all your life? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Except when I was in the service or where else, except when I travel but outside of —my voting is right here in Chicago, my voting residence. Mr. G RIFFIN . When were you in military service? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . From October 1942, until April 1943. Mr. G RIFFIN . Where did you serve? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Fort Lewis, Wash. Mr. G RIFFIN . Was that in the army? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . In the army. Mr. G RIFFIN . Is Fort Lewis near Seattle? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . Yes. Mr. G RIFFIN . Do you recall a man when you were in the service by the name of Sloan, a man from Chicago by the name of Sloan? Mr. R UBENSTEIN . What business was he in or what was he doing?