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If you are not located in the United States, you'll have to check the laws of the country where you are located before using this ebook. Title: Warren Commission (13 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIII (of 15) Author: Warren Commission Release Date: May 8, 2018 [EBook #57111] Language: English *** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMISSION *** Produced by MWS, Charlie Howard, and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at http://www.pgdp.net (This file was produced from images generously made available by The Internet Archive/American Libraries.) Transcriber’s Note: Cover created by Transcriber and placed in the Public Domain. INVESTIGATION OF THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY HEARINGS Before the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy P URSUANT T O E XECUTIVE O RDER 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. R ES . 137, 88 TH C ONGRESS , a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas Volume XIII UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE WASHINGTON, D.C. U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY C HIEF J USTICE E ARL W ARREN , Chairman S ENATOR R ICHARD B. R USSELL S ENATOR J OHN S HERMAN C OOPER R EPRESENTATIVE H ALE B OGGS R EPRESENTATIVE G ERALD R. F ORD M R . A LLEN W. D ULLES M R . J OHN J. M C C LOY J. L EE R ANKIN , General Counsel Assistant Counsel F RANCIS W. H. A DAMS J OSEPH A. B ALL D A VID W. B ELIN W ILLIAM T. C OLEMAN , Jr. M ELVIN A RON E ISENBERG B URT W. G RIFFIN L EON D. H UBERT , Jr. A LBERT E. J ENNER , Jr. W ESLEY J. L IEBELER N ORMAN R EDLICH W. D A VID S LAWSON A RLEN S PECTER S AMUEL A. S TERN H OWARD P. W ILLENS A A Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of Justice. Staff Members P HILLIP B ARSON E DWARD A. C ONROY J OHN H ART E LY A LFRED G OLDBERG M URRAY J. L AULICHT A RTHUR M ARMOR R ICHARD M. M OSK J OHN J. O’B RIEN S TUART P OLLAK A LFREDDA S COBEY C HARLES N. S HAFFER , Jr. Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission’s Report Preface The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XIII: L. C. Graves, James Robert Leavelle, L. D. Montgomery, Thomas Donald McMillon, and Forrest V . Sorrels, who participated in the arrest and questioning of Jack L. Ruby; Dr. Fred A. Bieberdorf, Frances Cason, Michael Hardin, and C. E. Hulse, who testified concerning the time at which Lee Harvey Oswald was shot; Ira Jefferson Beers, Jr., Robert Leonard Hankal, Robert S. Huffaker, Jr., George R. Phenix, and Jim Turner, news media personnel who observed the shooting of Oswald; Harold R. Fuqua, Edward Kelly, Louis McKinzie, Edward E. Pierce, Alfreadia Riggs, and John Olridge Servance, janitorial employees of the Dallas Municipal Building who gave testimony relating to the manner in which Ruby may have entered the building; A. M. Eberhardt, Sidney Evans, Jr., Bruce Ray Carlin, Karen Bennett Carlin, Doyle E. Lane, Elnora Pitts, Hal Priddy, Jr., Huey Reeves, Warren E. Richey, Malcolm R. Slaughter, Vernon S. Smart, John Allison Smith, Jesse M. Strong, and Ira N. Walker, Jr., all of whom saw Ruby for brief times during the period November 22–24, 1963, prior to the shooting of Oswald; John L. Daniels and Theodore Jackson, attendants at parking lots near the point at which Ruby’s car was parked on November 24, 1963; and Andrew Armstrong, Jr., Bertha Cheek, and Curtis La Verne Crafard, who were acquainted with Ruby prior to November 22, 1963. Contents Page Preface v Testimony of— L. C. Graves 1 James Robert Leavelle 14 L. D. Montgomery 21 Thomas Donald McMillon 37 Forrest V . Sorrels 55 Fred A. Bieberdorf 83 Frances Cason 89 Michael Hardin 94 C. E. Hulse 99 Ira Jefferson “Jack” Beers, Jr 102 Robert Leonard Hankal 112 Robert S. Huffaker, Jr 116 George R. Phenix 123 Jimmy Turner 130 Harold R. Fuqua 141 Edward Kelly 146 Louis McKinzie 147 Edward E. Pierce 156 Alfreadia Riggs 166 John Olridge Servance 175 A. M. Eberhardt 181 Sidney Evans, Jr 195 Bruce Ray Carlin 201 Karen Bennett Carlin 205 Doyle E. Lane 221 Elnora Pitts 228 Hal Priddy, Jr 239 Huey Reeves 243 Warren E. Richey 255 Malcolm R. Slaughter 261 Vernon S. Smart 266 John Allison Smith 277 Jesse M. Strong 284 Ira N. Walker, Jr 289 John L. Daniels 296 Theodore Jackson 299 Andrew Armstrong, Jr 302 Bertha Cheek 382 Curtis LaVerne Crafard 402 EXHIBITS INTRODUCED Armstrong Exhibit No.: Page 5300-A 357 5300-B 357 5300-C 357 5300-D 357 5300-E 357 5300-F 357 5301-A 357 5301-B 357 5301-C 357 5301-D 357 5301-E 357 5302 357 5303-A 357 5303-B 357 5303-C 357 5303-D 357 5303-E 357 5303-F 357 5303-G 357 5303-H 357 5303-I 357 5303-J 357 5303-K 357 5303-L 357 5303-M 357 5304-A 357 5304-B 357 5305-A 357 5305-B 357 5305-C 357 5305-D 357 5305-E 357 5305-F 357 5305-G 357 5305-H 357 5305-I 357 5305-J 357 5305-K 357 5305-L 357 5305-M 357 5305-N 357 5305-O 357 5305-P 357 5305-Q 357 5305-R 357 5305-S 357 5306-A 357 5306-B 357 5307-A 357 5308 375 5309-A 377 5309-B 379 5310-A 380 5310-B 380 5310-C 380 5310-D 380 5310-E 380 5310-F 380 5310-G 380 Beers Exhibit No.: 5350 103 5351 104 5352 107 Bieberdorf Exhibit No.: 5123 84 5124 85 Carlin Exhibit No. 5318 219 Cason Exhibit No. 5135 90 Cheek Exhibit No.: 5353 392 5354 397 Eberhardt Exhibit No.: 5025 192 5026 193 Evans Exhibit No. 5122 198 Fuqua Exhibit No. 5134 145 Graves Exhibit No.: 5003-A 12 5003-B 12 5003-C 12 Hankal Exhibit No.: 5337 113 5338 113 Hardin Exhibit No.: 5125 95 5126 95 5127 95 Huffaker Exhibit No.: 5331 117 5332 117 5333 120 Hulse Exhibit No. 5135 90 Kelly Exhibit No. 5133 147 Lane Exhibit No.: 5118 222 5119 222 Leavelle Exhibit No.: 5088 15 5089 15 5090 18 McMillon Exhibit No.: 5015 41 5016 44 5017 47 5018 47 5019 49 5020 55 Montgomery Exhibit No.: 5004 28 5005 35 5006 35 Phenix Exhibit No.: 5328 125 5329 125 5330 125 Pierce Exhibit No. 5132 162 Richey Exhibit No. 5316 259 Riggs Exhibit No.: 5128 168 5128-A 168 5129 172 5130 174 Servance Exhibit No. 5131 176 Smart Exhibit No.: 5021 267 5022 277 5023 274 5024 276 Smith Exhibit No. 5317 283 Sorrels Exhibit No.: 1 82 2-A 82 2-B 82 2-C 82 2-D 82 3-A 82 3-B 82 3-C 82 Strong Exhibit No.: 5120 285 5121 285 Turner Exhibit No. 5080 132 Walker Exhibit No. 5315 293 Hearings Before the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy TESTIMONY OF L. C. GRAVES The testimony of L. C. Graves was taken at 10:30 a.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Mr. G RIFFIN . I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has been given authority under a congressional resolution to investigate the facts surrounding the death of President Kennedy and the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald, and, other related events. We are interested particularly, in calling you, in the events that surrounded the death of Lee Harvey Oswald. We are also interested in everything that you may know and so, you can consider relevant any question having to do with the complete scope of the investigation. Now, you have the right to receive, by mail, the notice 3 days in advance before the taking your testimony, and I want to ask you at this time whether you waive that notice? Mr. G RA VES . Yes; I waive that notice. Mr. G RIFFIN . Now, you also have a right to be present here with an attorney, and, of course, you are not represented by counsel. If you would like the opportunity to get an attorney, we’ll afford you that chance. Mr. G RA VES . No; I don’t think that is necessary. Mr. G RIFFIN . Would you state for the record your name? Mr. G RA VES . My name is L. C. Graves [spelling] G-r-a-v-e-s. Mr. G RIFFIN . Where do you live, Mr. Graves? Mr. G RA VES . I live at 7811 Maxwell Avenue, Dallas, Tex. Mr. G RIFFIN . And where are you employed? Mr. G RA VES . I am employed with the Dallas Police Department, as a detective in the homicide and robbery bureau. Mr. G RIFFIN . How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? Mr. G RA VES . 14 years, the 31st day of October last. Mr. G RIFFIN . Where were you born? Mr. G RA VES . October 8, 1918, at Camp County. Mr. G RIFFIN . Texas? Mr. G RA VES . Texas. Mr. G RIFFIN . Have you been interviewed by me previous to this deposition which we are now taking? Mr. G RA VES . Yes. Mr. G RIFFIN . Would you state for the record when it was that you and I talked? Mr. G RA VES . Oh, approximately 30 minutes ago. Mr. G RIFFIN . We have been talking almost continuously since that? Mr. G RA VES . Yes. Mr. G RIFFIN . All right, now, I will indicate for the record that we have been discussing the—your experiences from the time President Kennedy was shot until you arrived for work on Sunday morning, November 24, and I believe you told me while I was interviewing you that on Sunday morning you drove to work, and that you parked your car somewhere along the side of the police department building, and it is your recollection that you walked from the Commerce Street side through the basement hall that leads to the records room? Mr. G RA VES . Yes. Mr. G RIFFIN . Now, I asked you in the interview whether you remember just—remembered just as you walked down from the Commerce Street—down the steps to the door which leads into the building, whether as you got inside the building you noticed the placement of TV cables in relationship to the engineroom, or that door that goes back down into the subbasement. Do you have any recollection of how the TV cables were spread out there? Mr. G RA VES . Vaguely. I think the cables did go through that door. I couldn’t be sure. Mr. G RIFFIN . Which door are you talking about? Mr. G RA VES . Through the engineroom door. Mr. G RIFFIN . When you got inside the building, where did you go? Mr. G RA VES . I went to the homicide and robbery bureau on the third floor, room 317. Mr. G RIFFIN . When you got up into the hallway on the third floor, can you describe the condition of the hallway? Mr. G RA VES . Well, of course, it was cluttered up with camera equipment and cables and newspeople, cameramen. Mr. G RIFFIN . Do you remember when you arrived there on the third floor, whether the TV cameras were manned? Mr. G RA VES . Reasonably sure they were. There were men standing around with earphones on and the light. Mr. G RIFFIN . Now, do you recall about what time it was that you got up there to the third floor? Mr. G RA VES . Approximately 8 o’clock, I think or—— Mr. G RIFFIN . That is in the morning? Mr. G RA VES . Yes. Mr. G RIFFIN . What did you do when you got to the homicide bureau? Mr. G RA VES . Well, I went in, of course, and started answering the telephones and talking to people that were calling about various things. Mr. G RIFFIN . Was anybody else there when you arrived? Mr. G RA VES . Yes; just about everyone, I think, that worked in the homicide bureau were there. Mr. G RIFFIN . Who would that be? Mr. G RA VES . Oh, of course, my partner, L. D. Montgomery—— Mr. G RIFFIN . Montgomery. Mr. G RA VES . E. R. Beck, C. N. Dhority, J. R. Leavelle, C. W. Brown, Lieutenant Wells, those are the ones that I remember right now at the moment. Mr. G RIFFIN . Do you remember if Captain Fritz was there? Mr. G RA VES . Well, yes; he was there. Mr. G RIFFIN . Do you remember whether or not, Lee Oswald was there? Mr. G RA VES . He wasn’t there when I first got there in the room. Mr. G RIFFIN . When you got into the room, do you remember talking with anybody? Mr. G RA VES . I don’t remember who I talked with first, when I got there. Mr. G RIFFIN . Do you remember having any conversation with anyone regardless of who it might have been, after you got up there, shortly after you arrived? Mr. G RA VES . Well, the only conversation I recall actually, is when we were told to bring him down, Oswald down to the captain’s office. Now, the rest was routine stuff. Mr. G RIFFIN . How long after you arrived would be your best estimate that you were told to bring Oswald down to the captain’s office. Mr. G RA VES . Well, let’s see, we would have a thing to show the exact time that I signed him out. At somewhere shortly before 10 o’clock, which would be something over an hour, better part of 2 hours—— Mr. G RIFFIN . In this period from approximately 8 o’clock until shortly before 10, did you have any conversations about the movement of Lee Oswald from the city jail to the county jail? Mr. G RA VES . Well, the captain told us that he would be transferred in a car. Mr. G RIFFIN . Captain Fritz told you that? Mr. G RA VES . Yes; and at first he wanted to talk to him some more, so, we brought him down to the office so he could be interviewed. Mr. G RIFFIN . Did Captain Fritz tell you what kind of a car he was going to be transferred in? Mr. G RA VES . Yes; we understood it was going to be a regular police car like we use, plain cars. Mr. G RIFFIN . How long before you got Oswald down did you get this information? Mr. G RA VES . Oh, it couldn’t have been but a few minutes, at least. Mr. G RIFFIN . Where were you told this? Mr. G RA VES . In the hallway, or office there. Mr. G RIFFIN . Do you recall now whether you were in that homicide office or in the hallway? Mr. G RA VES . I believe I was in the hallway when I heard it. Mr. G RIFFIN . How many other officers were standing around at that time? Mr. G RA VES . Oh, I don’t remember really. Probably two or three or four. Mr. G RIFFIN . How close was Captain Fritz to you when you heard this? Mr. G RA VES . As close as you and I are. Mr. G RIFFIN . We have a table separating us. Mr. G RA VES . Yes. Mr. G RIFFIN . 6-foot, about a 6-foot table, isn’t it? Was he talking only to you, or talking to the other officers? Mr. G RA VES . Generally to all of us. Mr. G RIFFIN . Now, at this time, were there newspaper people in the area? Mr. G RA VES . I don’t believe. At the moment, I don’t believe any newsmen were in there at the time. Mr. G RIFFIN . This is not in the hallway? Mr. G RA VES . No, I mean this little hallway in our bureau—comes from the front entrance. You know, you have been there. Mr. G RIFFIN . Yes, I have. Mr. G RA VES . See, there is a little hallway that comes around—— Mr. G RIFFIN . You are talking about the hallway that, as you open the door off the third floor hallway? Mr. G RA VES . No, I am talking about the hallway between the little office and captain’s office. Mr. G RIFFIN . For the record, about how far were you from the third floor hallway when this conversation took place? Mr. G RA VES . 25 feet, approximately. Mr. G RIFFIN . And do you remember the other officers who were standing around at the time? Mr. G RA VES . Well, Leavelle and Montgomery for sure. I don’t know who else right now. Beck— Dhority and Beck both could have been in there. I am not sure about that. Mr. G RIFFIN . How long did this conversation with Captain Fritz last? Mr. G RA VES . Just long enough to say that—“We are going to get him down and talk to him, and get the car ready in the basement.” Told Dhority and Brown what to do about the cars, also Beck, and so, we went up and got him and brought him down. Mr. G RIFFIN . At the time that you were instructed to go up and bring down Oswald, were Dhority and Brown given instructions by Fritz about the automobiles? Mr. G RA VES . I’m going to have to say that I am not sure whether it was at that moment, or after we brought him down, and I kind of believe that it was then that they got the cars ready and put them in the basement, and that at the last minute just before we took him down, we were instructed to move that car up there to the entrance exit of the jail office, and I am pretty sure that that is the way that went. Mr. G RIFFIN . Well, now, just directing your attention to the time that you were instructed to go up and bring Oswald down for interrogation, what other conversation do you remember taking place with Fritz? Mr. G RA VES . Well, that was all that was said to me at that time. Mr. G RIFFIN . Who went up with you? Mr. G RA VES . Leavelle and Dhority. Mr. G RIFFIN . And did you talk with Lee Oswald on your way down? Mr. G RA VES . No, didn’t say anything to him. Mr. G RIFFIN . What did you do after you brought Oswald down to the homicide bureau? Mr. G RA VES . Brought him in the office with Captain Fritz and the other people that were in there. Mr. G RIFFIN . Now, what did you do when you—— Mr. G RA VES . I went back outside and started answering phones, or doing whatever it was to be done for a while, but I didn’t go back in the office until just before we were ready to move him. Mr. G RIFFIN . While you were out there answering telephones and so forth, did you hear any more about the movement of Oswald to the county jail? Mr. G RA VES . Not while I was outside, no. Mr. G RIFFIN . Did you see Chief Curry come in? Mr. G RA VES . Yes. Mr. G RIFFIN . Did he say anything that you heard about the movement of Oswald? Mr. G RA VES . Not where I could hear him. He went in the office and this—presumably discussed something with Captain Fritz. I believe he made a number of trips there during the time that he was being interviewed. Mr. G RIFFIN . Were there any rumors circulating in the homicide bureau about how Oswald would be transferred? Mr. G RA VES . Not to my knowledge. Mr. G RIFFIN . All right. Well, then, when was the next time that you got any information about moving Lee Oswald? Mr. G RA VES . Immediately after, just a few minutes before the interview was completed, I went in the office, and we were instructed that we were to take him down, and he would be taken in the car. Mr. G RIFFIN . Who was in the office when you walked in? Mr. G RA VES . Well, Mr. Sorrels and Mr. Holmes. Mr. G RIFFIN . Sorrels is from the Secret Service? Mr. G RA VES . Mr. Holmes is from the Postal Department—I believe it is the Postal Department, and I can’t think of the other man’s name now. Mr. G RIFFIN . Man from the FBI? Mr. G RA VES . Yes; I have that in the little report that I wrote, but I can’t think of his name right now. It is a simple name, too, but I can’t think of it. Mr. G RIFFIN . Was it Hall? Mr. G RA VES . Who? Mr. G RIFFIN . Hall?