Rights for this book: Public domain in the USA. This edition is published by Project Gutenberg. Originally issued by Project Gutenberg on 2013-10-20. To support the work of Project Gutenberg, visit their Donation Page. This free ebook has been produced by GITenberg, a program of the Free Ebook Foundation. If you have corrections or improvements to make to this ebook, or you want to use the source files for this ebook, visit the book's github repository. You can support the work of the Free Ebook Foundation at their Contributors Page. The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (8 of 26): Hearings Vol. VIII (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org Title: Warren Commission (8 of 26): Hearings Vol. VIII (of 15) Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy Release Date: October 20, 2013 [EBook #44008] Language: English *** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V8 *** Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by www.history-matters.com. Cover created by Transcriber and placed in the Public Domain. INVESTIGATION OF THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY HEARINGS Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy P URSUANT T O E XECUTIVE O RDER 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. R ES . 137, 88 TH C ONGRESS , a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas Volume VIII UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE WASHINGTON, D.C. U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY C HIEF J USTICE E ARL W ARREN , Chairman S ENATOR R ICHARD B. R USSELL S ENATOR J OHN S HERMAN C OOPER R EPRESENTATIVE H ALE B OGGS R EPRESENTATIVE G ERALD R. F ORD M R . A LLEN W. D ULLES M R . J OHN J. M C C LOY J. L EE R ANKIN , General Counsel Assistant Counsel F RANCIS W. H. A DAMS J OSEPH A. B ALL D A VID W. B ELIN W ILLIAM T. C OLEMAN , Jr. M ELVIN A RON E ISENBERG B URT W. G RIFFIN L EON D. H UBERT , Jr. A LBERT E. J ENNER , Jr. W ESLEY J. L IEBELER N ORMAN R EDLICH W. D A VID S LAWSON A RLEN S PECTER S AMUEL A. S TERN H OWARD P. W ILLENS A Staff Members P HILLIP B ARSON E DWARD A. C ONROY J OHN H ART E LY A LFRED G OLDBERG M URRAY J. L AULICHT A RTHUR M ARMOR R ICHARD M. M OSK J OHN J. O'B RIEN S TUART P OLLAK A LFREDDA S COBEY C HARLES N. S HAFFER , Jr. Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report A Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of Justice. Preface The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume VIII: Edward V oebel, William E. Wulf, Bennierita Smith, Frederick S. O'Sullivan, Mildred Sawyer, Anne Boudreaux, Viola Peterman, Myrtle Evans, Julian Evans, Philip Eugene Vinson, and Hiram Conway, who were associated with Lee Harvey Oswald in his youth; Lillian Murret, Marilyn Dorothea Murret, Charles Murret, John M. Murret, and Edward John Pic, Jr., who were related to Oswald; John Carro, Dr. Renatus Hartogs, and Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel, who came into contact with Oswald while he was in New York during his youth; Nelson Delgado, Daniel Patrick Powers, John E. Donovan, Lt. Col. A. G. Folsom, Jr., Capt. George Donabedian, James Anthony Botelho, Donald Peter Camarata, Peter Francis Connor, Allen D. Graf, John Rene Heindel, David Christie Murray, Jr., Paul Edward Murphy, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., Mack Osborne, Richard Dennis Call, and Erwin Donald Lewis, who testified regarding Oswald's service in the Marine Corps; Martin Isaacs and Pauline Virginia Bates, who saw Oswald when he returned from Russia; and Max E. Clark, George A. Bouhe, Anna N. Meller, Elena A. Hall, John Raymond Hall, Mrs. Frank H. Ray (Valentina); and Mr. and Mrs. Igor Vladimir V oshinin, who became acquainted with Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in 1962. Contents Page Preface v Testimony of— Edward V oebel 1 William E. Wulf 15 Bennierita Smith 21 Frederick S. O'Sullivan 27 Mildred Sawyer 31 Anne Boudreaux 35 Viola Peterman 38 Myrtle Evans 45 Julian Evans 66 Philip Eugene Vinson 75 Hiram Conway 84 Lillian Murret 91 Marilyn Dorothea Murret 154 Charles Murret 180 John M. Murret 188 Edward John Pic, Jr 196 John Carro 202 Renatus Hartogs 214 Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel 224 Nelson Delgado 228 Daniel Patrick Powers 266 John E. Donovan 289 Allison G. Folsom, Jr 303 George Donabedian 311 James Anthony Botelho 315 Donald Peter Camarata 316 Peter Francis Connor 317 Allen D. Graf 317 John Rene Heindel 318 David Christie Murray, Jr 319 Paul Edward Murphy 319 Henry J. Roussel, Jr 320 Mack Osborne 321 Richard Dennis Call 322 Erwin Donald Lewis 323 Martin Isaacs 324 Pauline Virginia Bates 330 Max E. Clark 343 George A. Bouhe 355 Anna N. Meller 379 Elena A. Hall 391 John Raymond Hall 406 Mrs. Frank H. Ray (Valentina) 415 Mrs. Igor Vladimir V oshinin 425 Igor Vladimir V oshinin 448 EXHIBITS INTRODUCED Page Bates Exhibit No. 1 340 Carro Exhibit No. 1 213 Donabedian Exhibit No. 1 312 Folsom Exhibit No. 1 304 Hartogs Exhibit No. 1 220 Isaacs Exhibit No.: 1 328 2 328 3 328 Siegel Exhibit No.: 1 227 2 228 Hearings Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy TESTIMONY OF EDWARD VOEBEL The testimony of Edward V oebel was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Edward V oebel, 4916 Canal Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows: Mr. J ENNER . You are Edward V oebel? Mr. V OEBEL . That's right. Mr. J ENNER . And you live at 4916 Canal Street in New Orleans? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes, sir. Mr. J ENNER . Where is your place of business? Mr. V OEBEL . At the same place. Mr. J ENNER . They are both at the same place, 4916 Canal Street? Mr. V OEBEL . That's right. Mr. J ENNER . And that's here in New Orleans? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes. Mr. J ENNER . And you are associated in business, I believe, with your mother and father, are you not? Mr. V OEBEL . Mother, uncle, and grandmother. Mr. J ENNER . Your mother, your uncle, and your grandmother? Mr. V OEBEL . That's right. Mr. J ENNER . And what is your business? Mr. V OEBEL . Quality Florist Co. Mr. J ENNER . What is your age, Mr. V oebel? Mr. V OEBEL . I am 23. Mr. J ENNER . You received a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Warren Commission, did you not? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes, sir. Mr. J ENNER . And enclosed with the letter were a copy of Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; is that right? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes, sir. Mr. J ENNER . And Executive Order No. 11130, of President Lyndon B. Johnson appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties; is that right? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes. Mr. J ENNER . And a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one. You received that also? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes, sir. Mr. J ENNER . I take it you gather from those documents that the Commission is enjoined to investigate all of the facts and circumstances surrounding and bearing upon the assassination of the late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Mr. V OEBEL . Yes. Mr. J ENNER . I am Albert E. Jenner. Jr., member of the legal staff of the Commission, and I am here with my associate, Mr. Liebeler, taking depositions here in New Orleans, which is the birthplace of Lee Harvey Oswald, and making inquiries of those who in the ordinary course of their lives had some contact with this man, and also other aspects of the assassination. Now, it is our understanding that you did have some contact with him; is that right? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes. Mr. J ENNER . I would like to ask you a few questions about that. Mr. V OEBEL . Yes, sir. Mr. J ENNER . When did you first become acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald, and under which circumstances? Just tell me generally how that came about. Mr. V OEBEL . Well, it was at school. Mr. J ENNER . Is that Beauregard Junior High School? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes, sir. Mr. J ENNER . Do you know what year that was? Mr. V OEBEL . Let's see. I will have to figure that out. That was about 1954 or 1955. Mr. J ENNER . How did you become aware of him? Mr. V OEBEL . Going to school there. Do you want me to tell you the whole story? Mr. J ENNER . Well, let's get in a few preliminary remarks first. I would like to have a little background in the record before we go into that. Mr. V OEBEL . Yes, sir. I don't exactly remember when I first saw him, because I might have seen him going to school and back without knowing who it was, but I really became acquainted with him when he had this fight with this boy, and we took him back into the boy's restroom and tried to patch him up a bit. Mr. J ENNER . Were there individuals involved in this fight that you remember? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes. Mr. J ENNER . Tell me the circumstances of that, please. Mr. V OEBEL . Well, the day before, maybe a couple of days before, Lee had a fight with a couple of boys. Mr. J ENNER . Do you know their names? Mr. V OEBEL . They were the Neumeyer boys, John and Mike. Mr. J ENNER . John and Mike? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes, sir. Mr. J ENNER . They were classmates? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes. Well, I think one of them was in the same grade as Lee. One was older than the other one. The younger one was maybe a grade or two below Lee, and Lee was in a fight with John, the older one. Mr. J ENNER . Let's see if I have that straight now. Lee was in a fight with the elder of two Neumeyer brothers; is that right? Mr. V OEBEL . Right. He was in a fight with John Neumeyer. The fight, I think started on the school ground, and it sort of wandered down the street in the direction naturally in which I was going. Mr. J ENNER . Was it a protracted fight? Mr. V OEBEL . Protracted? Mr. J ENNER . Yes; did it keep going on? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes, it kept going on, across lawns and sidewalks, and people would run them off, and they would only run to the next place, and it continued that way from block to block, and as people would run them off of one block, they would go on to the next. Mr. J ENNER . That was fisticuffs; is that right? Mr. V OEBEL . Right. Mr. J ENNER . Were they about the same age? Mr. V OEBEL . Oswald and John? Mr. J ENNER . Yes. Mr. V OEBEL . I don't know; I guess so. Mr. J ENNER . How about size? Mr. V OEBEL . I think John was a little smaller, a little shorter than Lee. Mr. J ENNER . Do you know what caused the fight? Mr. V OEBEL . No; I don't. I don't remember that. Mr. J ENNER . But you followed this fight from place to place, did you not? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes. Mr. J ENNER . Why, were you curious? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes; and well, it was also on my way home, going that way. The fight traveled my route home. Mr. J ENNER . All right, what happened as this fight progressed down the street? Mr. V OEBEL . Well, I think Oswald was getting the best of John, and the little brother sticking by his brother, stepped in too, and then it was two against one, so with that Oswald just seemed to give one good punch to the little brother's jaw, and his mouth started bleeding. Mr. J ENNER . Whose mouth? Mr. V OEBEL . Mike Neumeyer. Mr. J ENNER . The little boy? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes, sir. Mike's mouth started bleeding, and when that happened, the whole sympathy of the crowd turned against Oswald for some reason, which I didn't understand, because it was two against one, and Oswald had a right to defend himself. In a way, I felt that this boy got what he deserved, and in fact, later on I found out that this boy that got his mouth cut had been in the habit of biting his lip. Oswald might have hit him on the shoulder or something, and the boy might have bit his lip, and it might have looked like Oswald hit him in the mouth, but anyway, somebody else came out and ran everybody off then, and the whole sympathy of the crowd was against Lee at that time because he had punched little Mike in the mouth and made his mouth bleed. I don't remember anything that happened after that, but I think I just went on home and everybody went their way, and then the next day or a couple of days later we were coming out of school in the evening, and Oswald, I think, was a little in front of me and I was a couple of paces behind him, and I was talking with some other people, and I didn't actually see what happened because it all happened so quick. Some big guy, probably from a high school—he looked like a tremendous football player—punched Lee right square in the mouth, and without him really knowing or seeing really who did it. I don't know who he was, and he ran off. That's when we ran after Lee to see if we could help him. Mr. J ENNER . He just swung one lick and ran? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes; that's what they call passing the post. He passed the post on him. Mr. J ENNER . Passed the post, what's that? Mr. V OEBEL . That's when somebody walks up to you and punches you. That's what's called punching the post, and someone passed the post on Lee at that time. Mr. J ENNER . You think that might have happened because of the squabble he had with the two Neumeyer boys a day or two before? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes; I think that was what brought it all about. I think this was sort of a revenge thing on the part of the Neumeyer boys, so that's when I felt sympathy toward Lee for something like this happening, and a couple of other boys and I—I don't remember who they were, but they brought him back in the restroom and tried to fix him up, and that's when our friendship, or semi-friendship, you might say, began. We weren't really buddy-buddy, but it was just a friendship, I would say. Mr. J ENNER . But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out. Mr. J ENNER . Well, you had a mild friendship with him from that point on, would you say? Mr. V OEBEL . Right. Mr. J ENNER . Tell me about that. Did you get together occasionally and share interests, and what were his interests? Mr. V OEBEL . I don't remember exactly what his interests were. I never even discussed that, that I know of. I was taking music uptown—I told the investigator that I was taking clarinet lessons at the time, but actually I was taking piano lessons, so that part was a mistake, but I did play both of them, but at that time I was taking piano lessons, and sometimes I would stop off at Lee's, and we would play darts and pool. Lee's the one who taught me to play pool. In fact, he invited me to come and play pool with him. He lived over the top of the pool hall. Mr. J ENNER . And did you accept his invitation? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes; that's when we played darts. Mr. J ENNER . You played darts and you shot pool also; is that right? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes, sir. Mr. J ENNER . Where was that? Mr. V OEBEL . On Exchange Alley. Mr. J ENNER . Exchange Alley? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes; or Exchange Place, whatever you call it. Mr. J ENNER . Did you find him adept in playing pool? Mr. V OEBEL . You see, I had never played before and he showed me the fundamentals of the game, and after a couple of games I started beating him, and he would say, "Beginner's luck," so I don't think he was that good, because I am really not that good at playing pool. I mean, I don't think he was a great pool player. Mr. J ENNER . But he showed an interest in the game and some adaption to the game at the time he was teaching you; is that right? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes; he liked it. Mr. J ENNER . He liked to play pool? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes; he seemed to like it. Mr. J ENNER . Did you ever meet his mother? Mr. V OEBEL . I think I met her one time, and for some reason I had a picture in my mind which was different from when I saw her in the paper after all of this happened. I didn't recognize her. She was a lot thinner, and her hair wasn't as gray, as I recall it, when I met her. Of course, this was about 8 years ago, but I can remember she had a black dress on, and she was sitting down smoking a cigarette; now, maybe she wasn't smoking, but this is a picture that comes to my mind as I recall that. Mr. J ENNER . Do you smoke? Mr. V OEBEL . No. Mr. J ENNER . Did Lee smoke? Mr. V OEBEL . No. Mr. J ENNER . Do you drink? Mr. V OEBEL . Well, I don't, really. Mr. J ENNER . Do you drink occasionally? Mr. V OEBEL . If it's in a party, or to be sociable I do, but I am not a drinker. Mr. J ENNER . How about Lee, was he a drinker? Mr. V OEBEL . Well, you see, we were only at the age of about fourteen or fifteen, and smoking and drinking just wasn't of interest to a lot of people our age at that time. Kids did it, but I had no reason for drinking at the time, because I mean, I was just 14 years old, and I think the legal age here is 18, so that didn't actually enter my mind. There was another thing why I sort of formed a friendship with Lee, and that was that most of the people that went to our school used to smoke, which I thought was a bum type nature, and Lee wasn't one of those, so he fitted in with my character, so to speak, a little bit more than the others. Mr. J ENNER . All right; those are the things I am interested in, what you think of Lee's habits and personality and so forth, from the time you knew him, and don't you worry about whether it's important or not. That's my problem. Mr. V OEBEL . Right. Mr. J ENNER . I'm trying to get a picture of this boy as he became a man, and that includes what he was doing and thinking when he was 14 or 15 years old, and as far as you are concerned, during the time you were sociable with him and particularly what your reaction to him was. People change, of course. Mr. V OEBEL . Right. Now, I want to make one thing clear. I liked Lee. I felt that we had a lot in common at that time. Now, if I met Lee Oswald, say a year ago, I am not saying that I would still like him, but the things I remember about Lee when we were going to school together caused me to have this sort of friendship for him, and I think in a way I understood him better than most of the other kids. He had the sort of personality that I could like. He was the type of boy that I could like, and if he had not changed at all, I probably still would have the same feeling for Lee Oswald, at least more so than for the Neumeyer brothers. Of course, as you say, people do change, and I don't know how I would have felt about Lee as we both grew older. I lost contact with Lee years ago. Mr. J ENNER . Would you describe the Neumeyer brothers as roustabouts? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes; they were ruffians, real punk-type guys. At least, that was my impression of them. Mr. J ENNER . Well, that's what I want, your impression. Would you say there were other boys of the type of the Neumeyer brothers at Beauregard School while you were attending there? Mr. V OEBEL . Oh, yes; I would say most of them seemed to be troublemakers. In fact, it was almost impossible to go to school at that time without brushing against somebody or getting involved in a fight sooner or later. You take me, I am not a fighter, but I had to fight at that school. Mr. J ENNER . You did? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes; it was almost impossible to get along with the type of characters that were going to that school at that time. Mr. J ENNER . So this particular incident, when Lee had this fight, that in your opinion is no indication that the boy was a rabble rouser or inclined to get into fights; is that right? Your impression was just the opposite of that; isn't that true? Mr. V OEBEL . Well, no; I will say this; I would back down from a fight a lot quicker that Lee would. Now, he wouldn't start any fights, but if you wanted to start one with him, he was going to make sure that he ended it, or you were going to really have one, because he wasn't going to take anything from anybody. I mean, people could call me names and I might just brush that off, but not Lee. You couldn't do that with Lee. Mr. J ENNER . Would you say he was unusually quick to take offense? Mr. V OEBEL . Well, I didn't know him to be that way. He could have been, now, but I wouldn't go that strong with it. All I'm saying is that if you picked on Lee, you had a fight on your hands. He wouldn't go out of his way to avoid it. Mr. J ENNER . All I'm asking you is what your impression was, and I don't want you to speculate as to what might have been. Do you think he was a person to take offense at anything on the spur of the minute, so to speak? Mr. V OEBEL . Well, like I said, he didn't take anything from anybody. Mr. J ENNER . Was this a coeducational school? Mr. V OEBEL . Right. Mr. J ENNER . High school or junior high? Mr. V OEBEL . Junior high school, but it just had been changed. It was a grammar school, and it had just been changed to a junior high, and when it changed to a junior high, it seemed to draw a lot of bad characters. As time went on, it might have slacked off; I don't know how it is now, but living right near there and seeing the kids come home now very often, I think they have gotten worse, because now they have got gang wars and things like that. Mr. J ENNER . You still live close to the school? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes; and I know they have gang wars in this cemetery near there, and there was this guy that I believe was pushing narcotics, pushing dope. I tried working with the police department for a long time to get this guy out there. I believe he was pushing dope, but it was hard to pin him down. I worked almost 2 months with the narcotics people, but he was too slick for us. He just disappeared. He was there for about a year, and then he disappeared. Mr. J ENNER . Are you familiar with the Warren Easton School? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes, sir. Mr. J ENNER . Did you go to Warren Easton? Mr. V OEBEL . No; I went to Fortier. Mr. J ENNER . Warren Easton is a senior high school; right? Mr. J ENNER . Yes, sir. Mr. J ENNER . Is it somewhere close to Beauregard? Mr. V OEBEL . Oh, about 6 or 8 blocks away, I would say. Mr. J ENNER . Is it normal for students going to Beauregard Junior High School to then enroll in Warren Easton? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes; that's normally right. Mr. J ENNER . That's the regular progression? Mr. V OEBEL . Right. Mr. J ENNER . Did you know that Lee attended Warren Easton? Mr. V OEBEL . No; to tell the truth, I lost complete contact with him after I left Beauregard. I might have seen him once or twice during that summer. Mr. J ENNER . Were you a grade up on him, or were you in the same grade, or what? Mr. V OEBEL . I don't remember. Let's see—no; I think we were in the same grade, I think we were. Mr. J ENNER . When you left Beauregard, where did you go to high school? Mr. V OEBEL . I went to Fortier. Mr. J ENNER . Any reason? Mr. V OEBEL . Well, Fortier has an ROTC system. Mr. J ENNER . That's why you went over there? Mr. V OEBEL . To get in the ROTC; yes, sir. Mr. J ENNER . Are you a service man? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes. Mr. J ENNER . In what branch? Mr. V OEBEL . Army. Mr. J ENNER . Did some other boys pal around with you and Lee? Mr. V OEBEL . Not that I can remember. You see, the only relationship we had after this fight I told you about, was when I would be downtown and stop in, and we would play pool or play darts, but I don't remember participating in any events with Lee at school. For example, I don't remember having played ball or anything with Lee, so probably our gym periods were different. I used to go straight home after school, and I think he did too, so there was no buddying around on either of our parts at school. I had a lot of friends and many acquaintances, but I don't think Lee did. Mr. J ENNER . You don't think Lee did? Mr. V OEBEL . No, sir. Mr. J ENNER . Do you have a recollection or conception of any ridicule accorded him when he first turned up at Beauregard? Mr. V OEBEL . Yes; I think there was something. Always when someone comes in new, they are supposed to belong to something like a gang or clique, and if you didn't, then you had to prove yourself. It's just like the old story they tell about the Irish Channel, about how anybody new moving in there had to prove himself or fight the leader in the community before they accepted him. Mr. J ENNER . Tell me some more about the Irish Channel, and how that compares to the Beauregard situation when you were attending there. Mr. V OEBEL . Well, it may be different now, but I know in my day when you went to Beauregard, if you didn't belong to a gang or something, you had to prove yourself. You had to fight somebody.