OnlyMP3.to - Governance and Risk Ep. 192- 96GowcgqSBM-192k-1... Fri, 5/27 3:42PM 1:14:19 SUMMARY KEYWORDS maker, people, dao, delegate, proposals, meetings, coordination, core, governance, protocol, discussion, forum, updates, create, initiative, unit, attract, guess, open source, global workforce SPEAKERS Artem Gordon, David Utrobin, Prose11, Nadia Alvarez Prose11 00:03 All right. Hello everyone and welcome. This is the 100 and 92nd of the governance and risk call here at Maker Dai. My name is Peyton, I go Viper's 11 online and I'm one of the governance facilitators here. Happy to be joined by a bunch of awesome people care about the Maker protocol. Many of them are Core Unit members of our community members and see some recognized delegates. And welcome as well to anyone watching this recording after the fact. Today is the 26th of May 2022. And we are doing a later call. So for those who are still able to join us, appreciate it. Thank you for testing this out with us. And we look forward to getting your feedback after this. So before we get into things too much, are a couple of ground rules to go over. One, as I mentioned, the call is being recorded. So let's try not to talk over one another. There are a couple neat zoom features you can utilize that all make the experience a little easier. Number one being the raise hand feature, you can find that under reactions, if you would like to speak when when the person speaking is done, go ahead and raise your hand that will kind of formal or quasi speakers list for plus a host to use. If you're unable or unwilling to use the mic, you can always drop a comment in chat. And we'll bring it up at an appropriate time. Think more or less does it I guess the only other thing to say is you know, this is an open call. We do encourage questions, comments, that sort of thing. Obviously ask that everyone be respectful. But yeah, if you have something to add or something to ask like, Please don't be shy. Or have some type of background noise there. David, it's surprised we don't get much more of a all the discord notifications and all that. All right, that will take us to today's agenda. So as usual, we'll start with the governance round up, go over the votes, the Maker improvement proposals, as well as a little snapshot of what's going on in the Maker forum. We don't have any initiative updates today. So after that, we'll go straight into our discussion, which is hopefully a fairly timely one. And that is on global workforce accessibility. So when talking a little bit about why we're trying this out on this call, as well as like the trade offs, what we should be doing, what we should be doing and hopefully gathering some some good opinions there. The nice thing So Thomas and Chad, thanks for still joining us even though it's about four hours later than usual. All right, quick rundown of the voting activity here at Maker. On the poll side, we had a few polls, all of which passed, they were the investigate the implementation of the Antifa institutional vote, investigate deploying the Maker DAO balance P sheet and eath and launching the Maker toe board with one basis point feet. All of these kind of do involve us some some more groundwork to meet them. You know, obviously the first two main investigate polls means now that the MKR holders have expressed their opinions, the core units need to look into it and see what they think could work on the Maker teleport side, I suspect we'll be getting initiative updated at some future date. But now we have the kind of ground ground laid for what fee structure we want to use when we are ready to deploy that. The only other active vote at the moment is the FE Greenlight. So do you want to bring people's attention to that voting ends on Monday. So if you haven't expressed your opinion, please be sure to do so. Cool. So that should do it for polls? caucus through the executive. I didn't check right before the meeting. So we might have had some more support. Pull that up now on vamping a little looks like we got up to about 69,000 MKR supporting the executive from yesterday, which means it's still hasn't passed. So if you support raising the emergency shutdown module threshold, adjusting live bear parameter and getting a couple of the core units there MKR transfers would appreciate it if you considered supporting the executive. And as I mentioned on the polls front, with the lack of kind of weekly things take care of we only had one potential item for the list and we decided that would be a good chance to save some of our technical resources and postpone the executive for for next week. Cool, so that should do it for updating you on the votes. We do have a number of Maker improvement proposals though. So I will hand the mic over to gala to give us an update there. Hello. 04:52 So this is data from GovAlpha and during the presentation so let's start with the rectification. whilst we've had five formal submissions for Miss governance cycle, so yeah, let's take a look at the results. They're all proposals passed except for MIPS 68 monitor LIS Lusitano MC 40 amendment was approved. So this means that from now on budget proposals must follow the new may 40 C three sub proposal template. It also means they must be submitted during submitted during budget submission window March, June, September or November. Among other considerations, so we from GovAlpha. We're working on a forum post to inform the community about the new considerations to keep in mind when submitting a budget proposal. And there will also be a no your mid for mid 40 In the near future. Cool next, let's dive into proposals in RFC. Most of them have been around for a while now. So we'll try to keep it short. For the top level MIPS, we have the same top level MIPS as the last week, MIPS 72 delegated collateral attachment real world assets arranger application for success capital myth 74 permissionless open market operations, MIPS 75 task forces. So maybe 75 was introduced simultaneously with one sub proposal aiming to create the task force for growth and MIP 72. We'll stay in RFC for the next cycle. Next Core Unit onboarding. We have the onboarding proposal for off the lending oversight per unit, aka law. Nadia Alvarez 06:51 Then 06:54 facilitator on and off bodies. We have a facilitator onboarding proposal from psycho node for the immunity security Core Unit. Thomas from data insights submitted a voluntary of boarding and supported by Thomas today is being proposed as the new facilitator for this unit. And last N and supported by Thomas today is being proposed as the new facilitator for this unit. And last week, Patrick J from GovAlpha submitted his mid 40 wants you for him to become a GovAlpha facilitator alongside Payton and LongForWisdom. We have three amendments, the Core Unit offboarding process amendment, whose foreign post was recently updated by Tim so please take a look at this. The new post if you have a moment. MIPS 16. The weekly governance cycle is being amended to reflect the new weekly cadence for executives. And we have made for C two sub proposal 21 which amends MIPS zero to introduce retrospection dates for MIPS. Next for Korea unit budgets. Nadia Alvarez 08:08 So we have 08:12 Strategic Finance budget, which is one year budget that totals 1.4 million Dai and we have the growth Core Unit budget, which is also one year budget that totals 5 million that these two budgets incorporate new notions introduced by the recently amended MIP 40. Then there's the Maker Shire Hathaway Special Purpose fund with aims, which aims to experiment with different yield generation strategies. And finally, we have two proposals from Oracle's so the first one is to modify the data models for BTC linkman usdt. Why have I slash USD and then the other one is to update the Oracle expiration time for all Oracle's. These proposals can be found under the Oracle category in the forum and we'll go on chain as polls on Monday, the 30th So next Monday for three days. As for important dates, so last day for modifications for proposals eligible to enter the dunes governance cycle is Wednesday the first the formal submission window for this cycle is opens on Monday the sixth and for proposals aspiring to enter July's governance cycle. They should be posted on the forum by Wednesday, June the eighth. So that's it from my side. Thank you very much. Prose11 09:54 Awesome, thanks, Kellen and appreciate putting those important dates at the end. So under that is a week from Wednesday, I believe will be the last day for proposals that can enter your show last night. All right. That should take us up to our form updates, so I will pass the mic over to Artem. Artem Gordon 10:16 Hey, welcome everyone and welcome to the quick GNR forum recap or reviewing the past week's announcements, discussions and signal requests going over may 19, to the 25th. And we're starting up with our top announcements. And first up we have GovAlpha, who has introduced its governance dashboard that provides visual visualization tools for important statistics and metrics that are related to governance and delegation. And some of the data available include MKR, delegated and delegate or count total an individual amount of MKR, staked and delegated current and historical vote weights for delegates and number of poll poll voters per month, plus more, N P A Nadia Alvarez 11:01 so check it out. Next up, Artem Gordon 11:05 we have growth who is requesting to activate the subdomain nature that Maker dao.com for a campaign called nature which is developed off a partnership between Maker DAO, one tree planted and pol app. And nature's vision is to aid carbon footprint by planting trees every time a vault is opened, which will also issue a poet badge claimable by the vault owner. Now there's a lot more detail on this initiative, and you can find it in the post. So check it out. And next up, we have Chicago DAO an emerging database that the University of Chicago who has published its delegate platform so we have a new delegate, and their external governance team is currently involved with compound and uni swamp and for more information on their core values, statements and conflicts of interest to check out their delegate platform post. And now moving on to our top discussions. First up we have Monets supply who introduces Maker base pool which is proposed integration of curve that involves a new stable coin liquidity pool that contains dye and other low risk Fiat based stable coins. And David Utrobin 12:19 oh, what about okay, Artem Gordon 12:21 I thought I had lbs delegate in the previous Nadia Alvarez 12:25 and the previous forum at a glance David Utrobin 12:30 Oh, yeah, that makes sense. All right. Yeah. Sorry. I looked in my head I group them together because they were on the meet your delegate call and they have like a back to back half hour slot. Yeah. Cool. I just wanted to make Artem Gordon 12:41 sure we Columbia and lbs word last week's David Utrobin 12:45 N A A N A David Utrobin 12:45 Yeah. Okay, anyways, okay. Artem Gordon 12:48 Anyway, sorry about that. Oh, Maker baseball. So okay, so money supply, money supply speaks on the baseball implementation, and its benefits to Maker. And he also presents well, they present three baseball composition options that accompany do a poll asking the community which of the composition options that the community supports. So check out the post and submit your opinion on the poll. 13:16 Next up, Artem Gordon 13:19 we have recognized delegate tan black, and was the help of many other members that are mentioned in the post who submit the new and improved Core Unit offboarding process myth, which amends MIP, 3839 and 41. This proposal aims to streamline, standardize and make the onboarding process more transparent while also reducing potential harm to the DAO and its community. And there is some more information about the process. Yeah, cool stuff. And next up finally, we have LongForWisdom, who makes a post summarizing GovAlpha recent thread of topics. On Off chain governance incentives, which include off chain proposal bounces and updating recognized delegates sourcecred payouts which which are the most recent posts that were made, and both posts are summarized and available at the forum at a glance, so check them out. And we are moving on to our top signal requests over the week we have four active signals and right now and one of them ends today at 22 UTC. So first up, we have Rama, who submits a signal request replacing the previous signal request by Andrew bourbon to restart the restart the burn and this signal is a trial of the new MIP 74 permissionless open market operations. And it will be also testing the effectiveness of MIP 74 through the signal. Now risk believes that it is a critical time right now for Maker Dow community to reach a consensus on what we're going to do with the surplus buffer and their solution is to help. Their solution is to help involve maintaining a sustainable surplus buffer higher than the current level to support any risk mitigation and growth while also burning a relatively small amount of the surplus buffer to help clarify that burning is still a fundamental component of Maker DAO and its community. Nadia Alvarez 15:14 And next up, Artem Gordon 15:19 we have velodrome which is an amm on solidly as a public good that provides deep liquidity and low slippage to token pairs. And Maker DAO is eligible to receive an airdrop of V NF t, which A A N A and low slippage to token pairs. And Maker DAO is eligible to receive an airdrop of V NF t, which is equivalent to 1% of the initial voting power for the new velodrome protocol that's launching on optimism on May 31. And as quoted by ASA V NFC will allow Maker to direct the missions to the liquidity pools of their choosing, thereby increasing liquidity of the chosen pairs and receiving all trading fees and bribes for those pools. And the Velodrome team requested to initially manage the VNF T on the Maker DAO 's behalf until their that was ready to manage it. And they propose both Dai USDC and Dai Opie pairs for launch to ensure that emissions are high enough to attract liquidity. And in response to this ASUS asking the community the following questions one should Maker DAO incentivize the pairs recommended by the Velodrome team to should Maker DAO transfer via NFC so a governance on multi SIG using mk 47. And three, what should make a DAO juF the trading fees. And next up, we have a wing stick, who inadvertently sent 3.19 or 3.2 MKR to the Maker governance address and submits a follow up signal requests and hopes of successfully requesting an exact number of the new MKR tokens to be minted and returned to the sender's address, since the existing tokens are now inaccessible. The votes however, are strongly not in favor because majority of people state that they don't want to leave a poor precedent that may result in an influx of upcoming signal requests by people asking to treat loss tickets. And finally, we have our last signal request which ends today. And the signal request was prepared by the command initiative and stakeholders who are proposing to offboard uni a uni v two Dai if a uni v two rep BTC if a uni v two uni if a and uni v two rep BTC Dai A. The reasoning behind this is that these vaults are very low demand. And the proposal parameters are set to minimize damage to existing volt owners, while also trying to ensure that debt is repaid or liquidated with minimal cost costs. And details on the proposed parameters that are provided are available in the single request itself. And a signal request ends later today. So vote on it if you haven't. And that's it for the gnrc part, but there's some more discussions in the actual forum at a glance, as well as evaluations, ongoing initiatives and Help Wanted. Check it out. 18:23 Thank Prose11 18:24 you, Anna. Thanks, Artem. And, yeah, I really do encourage everyone here. If any of those topics stood out to you, like please do give your feedback on the forum. You know, we have a lot of chats, we have a lot of calls for the forum is kind of the place where where we reserved things for longer. So we appreciate you highlighting everything or having such a good overview of all the signals and all that good stuff. Cool. All right. So as I said earlier, we do not have an initiative update today. So that will take us straight into the discussion segment. I know I said I'd present this But feel free Thomas, I know you guys like to help with the discussion side. So if there's anything you want to add, feel free to cut me off. Here we have the global workforce accessibility. As you notice, this call is like four hours later than the usual time. And that is part of a test run we're doing for the last call the month this month and next month, aimed at kind of getting a different group of people on the call or at least making it more accessible to a different group of people. The idea being the like, while Maker DAO is a global organization, a lot of us do kind of end up coming from the Americas and Europe. Meaning that when we go to schedule meetings, they tend to be at times that are more convenient for for us rather than people on the East. P Nadia Alvarez 19:58 Wonderful on Monday for them. The next slide in. Cool. Prose11 20:05 So I kind of wanted to present briefly like the, quote unquote state of the doubt, right? So we do have a global workforce, right? There's people from all over the world who are contributing to core units who are posting in the forums who are trying to take part in our system. And more so that user or tokens both definitely die and hopefully Empower as well. Likewise, we value decentralization, right, like that is a core principle, both in terms of our product, and in terms of our own social organization. Likewise, we prefer permissionless setups to one study permissions. This means that like, when we can make the choice, we want to make it so anyone who wants to be able to do the thing you can do so if you don't mind taking us to the next slide there. Yeah, we faced a lot of challenges. As I mentioned, at the top of the introduction, here, the majority ride, reside in the Americas and the Euro zone. And our meeting times are up and recording. Our meetings are hosted in English, as well as most of our discussion on the forums, we do have some Spanish support, and resources for coordination and communication as I'm recording. This means that if you want to get the word out, or if you want to get something on the Maker calendar, if you want to get something tweeted, you know, the the list can go on and on. But essentially, you're going to have to go through someone in the Core Unit, and most likely they're going to be a person residing in the US or or the Arizona, I guess, Americans are the Euro zone. This means that, like the gatekeeping this possible, that the things that we promote, and that we would like to share can be biased, right. There's Yeah, basically all bunch of downside implications to the idea that because we're well steered, I guess would would kind of be a favor by the core units and the core units have a geographic bias, then going forward, our geographic bias just kind of compounds. Yes. And don't forget the Canadians at all their wealth. Thanks for all right. All right. So if you take us to the next slide, I do have some kind of broader discussion questions. So to get us thinking and talking about this, I would like to present to the community I don't think I really need to read them off. But basically, the A boils down to those challenges exist. However, there's also a coordination cost to doing something about those challenges, right? Like, when we reminded people this morning, or discord that this call would be later, we definitely saw some people who are upset by this, who said they wouldn't be able to attend and that it was far less convenient for them. Likewise, like, it's a tremendous benefit to to be coordinated in English, right? Like it's a shared language, you know, if you speak English, you can come in and participate. Yeah, that'll block out people who, who do not speak English. So, kind of the goal of today's discussion is to say, alright, well, hey, is there low hanging fruit? Like be? Where do we fall in terms of like, persisting our values, through how we steer the organization? And kind of a final wrap up being that we are the core units? We're kind of running these calls and, and setting up this infrastructure? How much should we be taking this idea of, of global accessibility, both internally and externally, when we're trying to put things together? Nadia Alvarez 24:03 Cool, so N P N Prose11 24:07 obviously, feel free to raise your hand if you want to discuss. I do see in the comments, Steven mentioned, that he didn't understand the last point of I believe that was the resources for mass unification and coordination reside with the core units. Yeah, I guess what, what part of that, David? David Utrobin 24:30 I guess I just didn't really understand like, like, what that has to do, I guess. It's more like because of the core units in our workforces, EU and US centric, that basically everything is designed to, you know, help with coordination on those themes is that you're just trying to kind of explain the bias. Prose11 24:53 Yeah, the bias and, and the practicality of like, you know, the kind of lacks permission walls, right? Because like in order to get Something on, on our official calendar, you're gonna have to go through like GovComms here or GovAlpha. And we can primarily reside in the Americas in the euro zone. A, when we go to schedule events, we'll schedule them that are times that are convenient for us to moderate. And be like when we go to make announcements. They're also going to be at times, though, that were awake and working. David Utrobin 25:24 Okay, got it. So the core units basically have like a ton of influence over the actual, like operations, like these key, like, coordination touch points. Prose11 25:36 And yeah, I don't think there's necessarily a way to avoid that. But given that we do have a residency bias. That means that when we go to coordinate those things that will kind of persist further into into future things we do. appreciate you asking for clarification, and hopefully I explained that somewhat. Okay. I see, Raphael has got his hand up. Yeah, go for it. 26:04 Hey. Yeah, I think the point was raised already. That, I think it's, it's fine to shift one, one meeting a month to a different time zone. But I think that the current shift is somewhere in the middle. Like, if we want to optimize for other time zones, then probably, it would be good to just shift it nine hours ahead. So it would catch Japan and Asia and Pacific. And that would actually still be fine for Europeans too. Because when we shifted nine hours ahead, it would be like 9am, Central European Time, and 8am British Standard Time, which is kind of early but doable. Whereas now it's actually quite late. For me in Europe, it's like midnight. And it's one o'clock in the US in the UK, which is really late. P P P Prose11 27:16 Yeah, definitely. I think that's a good point, right? Like, if we're trying to achieve a specific zone, like maybe we should target better hours. There's, of course, another kind of problematic bias of what is better hours, right? We saw in the chat, like some people saying around noon is really great. And if you're like, working on the core, on the core units, or you know, the decentralized world, middle of the day is probably pretty great. But if that's your second job, or a side hobby, or what have you, you'd probably prefer it or the war worker, or have to work right. But yeah, I do agree that perhaps some we didn't quite shifted far enough. But then we also have this dual problem of, okay, well, if we shifted too far, and we lose all of our org audience, then where, you know, what, what type of meeting now we have? 28:16 Yeah, totally, I think the it's actually an interesting design question in a way, like, how would you design this this question? And how would you ask it so that as many people as possible from other time zones can actually express their opinion? It's like, like a Doodle poll, and only non Europeans can see. David Utrobin 28:43 I guess it also, like, begs the question of what's the purpose of these calls, like, I know, initially, the governance and risk calls were about, you know, coordination, and really getting people aligned around the emergent governance model that was happening in Maker and slowly but surely, as Maker matured, this call became more of an informational call where it was like, you know, get everybody in the room who's interested, including, and like, especially external stakeholders, and basically catch them up on what's been going on with the week and kind of bring up a pertinent topic. But it, it's like, it's not clear to me why, you know, like, if you want to engage in the discussion, yes, that makes sense. But for the informational side, like you have the recording, so you don't really need to be on the call for that. So, I mean, I'm curious, like, instead of using the call, how do we, yeah, how do we like maybe design discussion spaces around like, key issues and topics like with, I guess, global contributors in mind, it Prose11 29:54 was just some good reflections. David, where it's like, you know, we're always gonna have the problem of of it. Being not useful for somebody? So is there a better way to to get the word out or or segment the information? And I see a will with this and if you want to go for it. 30:14 Yeah, I think, I think probably the wider the wider context for some of this stuff, it's some part of it is actually the workforce and the coordination, right. But the wider context is, is probably in our standing today is, is the fact that previously, previously in the foundation, in the foundation P P times, they used to have, I guess, the, I guess a wider, wider presence and in top of mind for for Maker, because there were people across the really across the globe, even though they should they were working for a single organization, right. And in since, since the move to the fine from the foundation model to the, to the Core Unit model. The actually a lot of that kind of was a lot this deprioritized. So in just like pretty clear example, for example, like growth, growth as a team used to have, like BD that point in time, the foundation used to have no people with presidents in Korea and Japan, and in a lot of like China, you know, a lot of different places. And so there was a little bit like, of attention there. And since that has been moved to the Core Unit model, of course, I mean, you know, it's the activity happens, where we're Korean, it's the majority of the current sign in the kind of the Atlantic axis between the US and, you know, or, you know, between the Americas, in Europe, and Africa. So, so a lot of that kind of like didn't, didn't kind of realize, and now we are kind of almost two years into into the model, I mean, a little bit over a year. And essentially, the mind share of Maker has really reduced in those in those regions, because there hasn't been attention given to any of them. So people barely know that Maker even exists. So I think part of it is is also about creating a reach in, in areas where people actually don't, don't engage with Maker because nothing that actually happens in the Maker protocol actually takes care of it. And not saying that necessarily. The GNR CO is the right time is the right kind of one for this, but it's just creating that global reach to those areas is, is is kind of, I think in the background in it's something that existed at the foundation, but just actually wasn't ever prioritized. So yeah, since since since then. So that's, that's I guess, the only the only point but but else elsewhere, finding the right time zones, and all that kind of stuff, this is always going to be a tricky thing, because someone in the globe is always is lifting, right, whether it's being in the East or in the, in the West, it's going to be impossible to have something that is going to be good for everyone. Prose11 33:24 I appreciate that context. Thank you, David, to get your hand raised. David Utrobin 33:39 Yeah, so I wanted to talk about like, the trade offs for Global Inclusion, because I think, like for business to operate efficiently, it has to have like, really strong coordination between all the different people that work on it. And, and, and, of course, like, if you have people from all around the globe, you know, maybe you're not going to be able to have like as high fidelity connection with those people. And there is going to be a lag, right, just due to reality. So I think like Dalits have already this problem, especially like our DAO because it's like, actually quite decentralized the workforce, not globally. I mean, I mean, just like in terms of leadership, there's 20 different teams. And there's many, many different initiatives. All many of those initiatives involve various teams. And so I think, just as a DAO period, ignoring the Global Inclusion thing 1000 are already like, less efficient on the coordination side. And I think that, you know, trying to design or optimize for Global Inclusion kind of like, creates, like, it exacerbates the problem with it. And that's something that worries me. Like, yeah, it worries To me, because it makes our, our our organization slower, maybe like less adaptable, but I don't know if I'm like on point, they're curious what others Prose11 35:10 P P think. So I guess the potential counterpoint to that dude is that, you know, due to our kind of lean infrastructure, right, like, you don't have to work in an office to be a part of Maker, you don't have to, you know, have a physical location, we are much more able to get to grab the global talent and bring them in, then then our traditional corporation might be so big as well, you definitely would sacrifice on coordination. Your kind of reward could be that you're able to garner more talent. David Utrobin 35:55 Yeah, maybe there's a interesting thing that, that Rafael wrote about long form, writing rather than verbal tradition of meetings. And I think the forum is kind of an example of just the Maker DAO in general, being involved in so much different things that long form writing ends up like being very, very hard to digest when there's like 12 different complex subjects being written about. So all in all, like I think Maker also has this information complexity and volume problem that, that we've all been like, wrestling with. So not just that, yeah, basically, that. Prose11 36:44 Yeah, that is a good point. Because right one, one solution would be like, Okay, well, don't have coordinating meetings, since someone will always be unable to attend. But kind of the result would be kind of an information, de Lucia have a lot of different posts and a lot of different updates. I have often wondered about doing like recorded updates. A because like, you could pipe them into a live call, right? If people can attend and be they're much more digestible. Like, you know, a lot of us probably have the habit of listening to things above one 1x speed, which is really nice, because you can compress information and still on follow it, as well as consumers while while on a walker, you know, doing other transporter don't have to be sitting at the very least. So I guess that's one potential alternative. Are there other kind of low hanging fruits? Are there things we can be doing that would make the data more accessible without sacrificing too much on the coordination front? Nadia Alvarez 37:58 Go for right now. 38:00 I think the do in the chat to have these kinds of informal, maybe smaller and more frequent chats. I think that that's really something that could be facilitated quite easily. And so like, I really liked these meetings, because of the information density and like, I can get all my Maker fill in one goal, basically. So that's amazing. But we have this opportunity, like maybe more frequent times, maybe even multiple times a day where less people get together. It's not recorded and people can just share what's on their mind. Basically, I think it happens sometimes in the q&a is when when there's like a couple of people like I can remember the discussion, we had Payton, I think you and Michael Rapinoe was there about these friends that was like, super, super cool. And this size of group is just, I think that's just amazing. And there is this thing like Dunbar's number, I think he had like 100 150 people in mind. And like, just P N with Core Unit members we are you are at like 118. And then the delegates were already like above that number and something happens around that size in the hundreds 50s isn't like, Oh, if it's 151, then it happens. And if it's 149, then we're safe. It's like approaching that number something happens in groups that where communication becomes a little bit strange, I think. And so having these kinds of smaller groups that are able to get together and interact, and I think that would be would be really amazing. David Utrobin 39:34 I think the challenge with that is getting buy in and and really like explaining that tool to everybody because it's hard for one team to facilitate that. Like each each discussion means that facilitator needs somebody to introduce, like what's being discussed. It needs somebody to create some context. And I think that yeah, like it would be really, really cool to see it Like proactive, decentralized, like use of like discord spaces for like not discord like voice channel chats, you know, or Twitter species even though like Twitter spaces probably invite a lot of a lot more outsiders into those discussions. I guess you got to be cognizant of whether you want it to be an internal discussion, public discussion. But yeah, something more bite sized. It's really what I'm hearing you Raphael, I think that that's, that's, that's pretty good. Yeah, that's good. 40:31 I think I think your point is valid. Like, basically in a decent, decentralized organization, I should just kind of start that, but I think maybe that could be kind of moderated from from the, from the seals or from GovAlpha that they say, Hey, that's okay. If you if you want to, like, jump on a discord channel, we'll give you will give you rights, you know, do that, you know, that just jump in the voice chat? And, you know, we'll, we'll make some noise for that, and people will show up or not. And that's okay, we are okay with you like doing that. I think that expectation hasn't been set. And maybe if you if that's something that Maker wants to do, then I think that's maybe the way to do it is just to kind of explicitly give the permission to do that. Prose11 41:29 I would say from like, my viewpoint, like, you do athletics plus for permission, right? Like, you can always reach out to us to get an event on the calendar and that sort of thing. Like I said, Now, that is a potential problem to have that, that funnel work does still have to go through Core Unit members. The nice part is like, yeah, hopefully pretty reasonable and accommodating and willing to get these ideas out there. Yeah, 41:58 good point. It's just that the idea has never crossed my mind. But it makes total sense. And I'll think about it. And I David Utrobin 42:10 think we'll, we'll brought up the there's already like workshops and stakeholder alignment P think we'll, we'll brought up the there's already like workshops and stakeholder alignment meetings that, you know, sync core units around, like coordination for everyday work. And those are typically like something like an hour, hour and a half recurring weekly. But something like he's shorter, like spaces and formats where we can discuss things I think that really works with like, keep the key people involved in and like, I guess I need to think more about, like, what that format is really best for because I don't think it's best for coordination, per se, or even decision making. Although actually it might be as kind of like a short form, like really, really specific things right now, like when we coordinate on initiatives, we have like a whole laundry list of things to go through, right. But if there's something like Oh, like, we need to, like figure out a quick thing. Like, let's schedule a 15 minute, you know, Discord, Discord call or whatever? Yeah, that's possible. I guess the challenge is like, with global contributors, like how do you get all the right people in the room? Because you could go and tackle something for 15 minutes in a discord voice channel. But you know, maybe like, the key person with the right information, isn't there to share that context? And so it actually like a mistake, and you propagate? And like, that's something that that I get, but that concerns me a little bit? Like, how do we get all the right people in the room? And actually, this goes back to one of your promises. It's a trade off, right? If if we are trying to have more global contributors, actually, it's going to make it a lot more difficult to get all the right people in the room to make the right decision. Nadia Alvarez 43:59 Yeah, so yeah. 44:06 Yeah, I think if you think like, from timezone perspective, I kind of like, I have first line, I guess, my experience with with this and I mean, I just, I'm just, I'm just to passion about Maker not to be to be participating within within the Maker protocol. But um, you you've got, I guess, pockets, pockets of kind of, you know, contributions that actually kind of work more more more effectively, then than others. And I think purely kind of on when you were doing like workshops or awkward nations with different teams. So for example, like, and this is really a matter of perspective, right? So there's a lot of activity that actually does does happen, I think within the core units, within the core units in the Maker protocol learning during those kind of like, you know, afternoon, afternoon, Europe, afternoon in Europe or time in the US, and there is also activity that happens when, when the US is going into their own afternoons in the evenings, and then the Europeans actually going to sleep and that's, that's where a lot of my kinda like, for example, like work that I do with my team actually kind of happens. Just because then it's like, it's morning and things like that for, for, for me, for I guess, for a global workforce, I think it's probably it is it is very challenging. But if you if you structure work in a way that in a way that that can be a little bit like a synchronicity, and sometimes they they can be, then you can make it work quite effectively, by leveraging an organization that effectively can work 24/7, right. Because if you if that organization does not work 24/7 And this actually kind of we did quite a bit of that experiment, I think, when things were operating, like we're part of the team, remember, like when Phil was based in the UK, and, and beat me they made at the exactly antipode of our Phil, when things got like, kind of cool working 24/7 with like handover of work, we effectively at a point in time, we were a 2416 working kind of like around around the clock, because you would kind of like handover and then would pick it up things on the other end. So it requires more effort to build that. But if you if you enable a framework with teams, get can N get the job done in handovers like eternally from one to the other. It can be extremely powerful. But it does require a lot of effort actually, to put that together. So, so that was just kind of Yeah, that was just kind of like experience in that's not necessarily related to the GNR call itself, it's more like related to workplace experience