OnlyMP3.to - Governance and Risk Ep. 187- KukRFWrMOjs-192k-1... Fri, 4/22 8:18PM 1:08:39 SUMMARY KEYWORDS dao, governance, maker, people, next slide, core, dai, onboarding, workshop, individuals, talk, unit, challenges, proposal, budget, vote, passing, discussion, team, collateral SPEAKERS Artem Gordon, Robert, Prose11, David Utrobin, Pablo Prose11 00:00 The Blue two are recorded session of the Maker governance risk call. My name is Pavan. I go by pros 11 online, and I'm one of the governance facilitators here Maker DAO. Thank you everyone joining us both live and later on the recording for our 187 governance and risk call. Today is the 21st of April 2022. And I'm joined by a bunch of awesome people who contribute and are otherwise interested in the Maker protocol. We got a bit of an agenda to get through today. But before we get there, I will just lay a couple ground rules. Obviously, like I said, the meeting is being recorded. So let's try not to talk over one another. There is a great raise hand function in zoom. If you do have something you'd like to add conversation makes it easy for me to call on you. And let's not step on each other. If you're unable or otherwise, I'm willing to use your microphone, feel free to drop it in the chat. And we'll try to work it in when conversationally appropriate. But with all those warnings cetera we do want this to be open conversation. So if you have a question, if someone touches on a topic you'd like to explore further, like, don't be afraid to drop it in chat or hop in the conversation. That does it for our ground rules. So we'll go ahead and get started with our agenda here. As usual, we'll start with our morning updates. been fairly like we eaten in terms of weekly polls, we only had to go up and both of them pass. So those were the short ratification poll to men 64. That is the bug bounty met, buying more flexibility and their scope and how they label different bugs that are that are reported. And the other poll was to whitelist always start app on multiple articles that I'm listed out on the next screen, so don't have to wait too long if you don't remember them. Like I said both of those passed with pretty significant margins. So they will be taking effect in least the short ratification poll will instantly take effect and then the whitelist on the Oracle's will be included in tomorrow's executive. I do want to remind everyone that there are 12 monthly ratification bowls, with votes ending on Monday. So please do vote on those. If you do have an opinion. Pablo will be giving us a little deeper dive as to what those are and how the votes are going in the next segment. But if you haven't voted yet, please do consider doing so. And then finally, there are two ongoing Greenlight polls for statewide steak beef and Huntington Valley Bank Loan cynic syndication collateral just to make me get a little tongue tied here. Those end on May 2. So you do have some time if you still need to explore those. But again, we have an opinion on those collaterals. Please do make it over the voting portal and let us know what you P think. That should do it for polls. Last week's executive did pass and was executed. That was the was the the in order executive was the offloading tsp USD and some Dai transfers. So those of you that were paying attention this week saw that a bunch of the T USD was liquidated this week. Maybe that we're at a topic if we have some time at the end of the call. We can explore further if there questions there. But check it out on the Maker burn UI or a few of the other sites if you're curious how those went. Tomorrow's executive will whitelist those Oasis startup Oracle's I mentioned that the full list on the screen no need to run through them all. But those would allow a waste has access to to our Oracle feeds. If that stuff is cool, enough stumbling through our governance things on lion. I'm going to hand the mic over to Pablo and give us an update on the maps. Pablo 03:58 Yep, thank you, Payton. Hello, everyone, Pablo here with a MIPS update. Next slide, please. So we'll be taking a look at the ratification polls which went up on Monday 11 and are closing next Monday, four days from today. But first, make slight as Peyton just announced until I'm sorry, two shorter deprecation polls. That is three day balls for proposals that entered the weekday cycle have just closed and passed they made 64 Amendment and the Oracle access whitelist. Next slide. Moving on to the monthly cycle ratification polls, we have two top level of MIPS limit 666. Sorry, the pairwise license here that is currently being rejected with 100% Negative votes and maybe 67, which is currently passing methodology review and process for restructure to find finance transactions looks like. We have four Core Unit budgets with governance communications having submitted two budgets, one of which is on alternatives slash fallback for the other. And neither is currently passing the remaining budget or for data insights and for political engineering. And these are both passing, although with different degrees of comfort. Next slide. Revised mandate for data insights and governance communications have been submitted these refreshed mandates are both passing. Next slide. We have a Core Unit onboarding proposal set for events 001. That is likewise passing the scoring teams to be in charge of handling their planification to organization and the execution of Maker DAO branded events looks like. Finally, we have post that one on board collateral engineering services as a collateral onboarding domain team. To that modify the MIB six collateral application form. And three, dissolve the multisig for the defunct content production Core Unit. These balls are all passing. Next lead. Thank you. Now let's take a look at the proposals in our FC. Some of these have been in RFC for some time now. So maybe 65 is a self contained real world asset collateral onboarding map that's currently undergoing modifications, after some spirited community discussion may pass 69 formalizes technical work completed to deliver fast withdrawals on layer two. We also have made 68 also a self contained collateral onboarding map. Now for the more recent ones MIP 70, Amis Pip. 71 configure a map set for real world as collateral onboarding much in the fashion of the current MIP 65 and are not being formally submitted for the time being nor for the foreseeable future. For more information, please refer to the MIP 70 threat. Map 72. authorizes six is capital as a real world as the ranger for Maker DAO. This may be still being worked on and it's likely to be formally submitted for the tune governance cycle at the earliest. Next slide. Thank you. So some old acquaintances here he budget proposal for the strategic cabinet score unit and two amendments that aim to improve the Core Unit framework. One of them revises the budget process and the other revises the coordinator reporting process. We have a facilitator onboarding upcycled for Demian five security Core Unit reminded that second notice currently deputy facilitator for this coordinate. And lastly, we have a special purpose Fund, which aims to create a 10 million pool managed by Strategic Finance to experiment with various yield generation strategies. And I think that's pretty much all for me. P Prose11 08:26 Thank you. Awesome. Thanks, Pablo. We really appreciate the rundown. And yeah, fun reminder to go vote on those proposals if you haven't done so already. Awesome. I believe that should take us to our forum general updates. Do we have Artem given us today? Yeah. Looks like take it away. Artem Gordon 08:45 Yep. Hey, everybody. Happy Thursday. And welcome to the forum recap where we could quickly review the highlighted announcements, discussions and active signal requests. And this time covering the week of April 14 to 20, which was kind of a late week, we have one announcements, and then a little handful of discussions. So let's begin with the announcement. Starting with Sebastian, analyzing what's happened to our stablecoin liquidity buffer, and reporting that users may have migrated to other yield farming alternatives. He looks into avalanche compound phantom decks and three pool and also Ethereum loans, check out the post to actually check out the analysis that he provides. about all that. Yeah. And moving on to our discussions, starting with Kristian Peterson who posted a first piece among what will be an ongoing series talking about difficulties and challenges of integrating real world finance with DeFi. And this first post covers stability fees, how they compound over time and compares them to real world cases in finance. It's pretty short and straightforward. So the Fleet give it a read. And next up, we have Kristian Peterson centrifuge and real world finance who have been working over the last couple of weeks deliver the new version of their legal structure. However, this post was made to help further clarify on the trust indenture and the indenture trustee, which goes into detail by explaining both those roles and the mechanisms involved with them. Hopefully this information does help with the release of the new legal structure. And next up, everybody probably already knows that Elon Musk acquired a stake in Twitter, but he has also submitted an offer to take the company private, over the goal to open source Twitter and safeguard free speech and response Max glass asks through an informal poll, whether Maker DAO should establish a free speech Delaware trust for web three and Twitter users to finance Elon Musk's both purchase and open sourcing of 11:02 Twitter. And then next up Artem Gordon 11:07 on our last discussion, we have a informal poll on their way to gauge interest and funding a professional media production company as a new Core Unit to boost content marketing plans. This is a known television production company named glass Entertainment Group who is proposing to establish content production Core Unit called Let's Make A DAO with Nancy glass is the Core Unit facilitator. And there's a lot of information to uncover in this post. So check it out and place your vote. And now we're moving on to our signal requests over the week. There are currently three going on and first stop passing an introduction of the rate limiting flapper P A A has been successful. But it only allows to kick off a new auction if the auction does not increase the total Dai currently an auction above the threshold. And basically, the value for the lid is set to 150k. At the moment, which can run up to five flap auctions at once in parallel. Shooby believes that this isn't there isn't a good reason to burn this much MKR at the moment and proposes setting the lid to the same value as the bump. So a one to one ratio of 30,000 Dai which will ensure that there's only one parallel clap auction running at a given time. And he's asking the community basically whether we should set set the lid one lid to the bump value of 30,000 Dai and the vote will run until May 13. It's currently sitting at a winning option of yes at 45%. Next up we have true fi who's signaling to onboard a D three M for a newly created through five three month maturity Dai lending portfolio. The initial debt ceiling is 50 to 100 million Dai. And Ryan, a member of truefire states that this is that this onboarding is in line with Maker DAO is aggressive growth strategy vision. They believe that this action would promote non crypto lending opportunities also customized loan opportunities and future collaborations. However, some downsides to this involves a lot of risk in smart contracts, multisig illiquidity and compliance, the vote will run up until April 25, and is currently winning, with yes votes at 71%. And our final signal request, it's actually ending very soon. It's ending today. Bourbon recently revised as MC 40. C three to modify the strategic happiness Core Unit budget. And due to the original budget quarter now being complete Andrew as Andrew requests a one time transfer of 35,000 Dai to cover the gap that happened between the budget cycles, and these funds will be used to produce and deliver swag for Amsterdam as well as upcoming events in the next governance 14:08 cycle. And Artem Gordon 14:12 that's it for the forum recap. There's that was actually this time, that was everything that's in the forum at a glance because it was a pretty light week. But there's also ongoing initiatives and Help Wanted, which I did not go over. Thanks Prose11 14:28 in Arnhem, and please do vote on those signals as well, if they touch a topic you'd like to express your opinion. Awesome. So I think that's gonna take us straight into our discussion segment looks like Yeah, and I'm very excited obviously a little biased, because I got to participate in this workshop. But we have Dennis from from ducks, the facilitator of the development and UX Core Unit here and Maker. He led a workshop on the goal global governance gap. During here in Amsterdam, and I won't steal too much his thunder and let him presented, but we're really excited to have him come on and talk about what he did and maybe what some of the outcomes were from it. Dennis, are you all good to go? 15:15 Yeah, sure, let's do it. Thanks for the intro Payton. And I should probably start by saying that I was definitely not on my own. So I was I was there with Thiago, who's on who's on our team. A P was definitely not on my own. So I was I was there with Thiago, who's on who's on our team. He's a designer. And he happens to be also like a design thinking veteran. So we used to work together quite a bit also before Maker so that was that was really cool to be in person jamming together on a workshop again. So some context basically. Yeah, as Doc's obviously, we're now focused on governance tooling, like we are a product team. So we're trying to build a relevant roadmap and then deliver on the roadmap. But as you work on governance tooling, then, yeah, it's inevitable to reach a conclusion that it's DAO governance is a very intertwined. Domain, right? So there's not a lot of things you can you can achieve as a single Core Unit by just iterating on this on this web app, right, we really need to coordinate with other Core Unit as well. And also look at processes and policies and incentives. And if you Yeah, and if you follow that train of thought, then it will also make sense to start thinking about governance, and also looking at other projects out there doing governance, right, in terms of processes and policies and stuff. So as as a Core Unit, we've been slowly finding our cadence right over the past couple of months. And I feel at this point, we're running like very smoothly. We have a lot of like headspace to also do research and think and talk with others. Back in Lisbon, actually, there was this event organised by the Taoist, which is like an organization that is like doing very high quality events and gatherings hospital online to talk and to talk and think about DAO governance frameworks, but also like the whole Yeah, the, let's say, the processes that that that are part of that as well, that a really good event at Lisbon. And then we learned that they will also going to do an event in Amsterdam, which was called the Global Governance gathering. And that was basically our cue to decide that we should probably do something there because there was a huge opportunity. I'm actually from Amsterdam. So I'm announcing I'm local. I'm actually right now, here at the conference, the algo is from there as well. So there was like, there was like, a nice opportunity to do something. So we put in a little sponsorship for the Dallas event, a big shout out to the growth Core Unit for helping us with that. And we actually organized a workshop, where we invited otter like, Yep, very prominent Delve governance thinkers from from other projects. And we spent like a full day Yeah, figuring out what the main challenges are of the governance, and then also trying to jam on some some solution rights from some concepts that might be interesting to pursue. So yeah, what we're going to do now is I'm just going to run you through the presentation that I did here at the at the def connect conference on Tuesday, which is basically like a summary of the workshop itself. The recording is also available, but I'll just quickly go through it. And then maybe after that, we can have a low key discussion about these. Yes, some of these governance challenges that we might also be facing at Maker and then also some of the interesting avenues we could explore to try to find solutions for those. So let's go to the next slide. And probably we can skip the next one, as well. Yeah, because this is just a basic introduction about myself and about ducks. So most of you already know, ducks, so we can probably skip it. Yeah, that's yeah, let's go back to that one. That's like a nice little teaser, we're actually going to do like a redesign of the governance portal that's going to be launched in a couple of days. On Tuesday, this is what it's going to look like. So that's just a little teaser, be on the lookout for that release on Tuesday. We're very eager to get to get that out there. Because we've been working on this for a while. And yeah, we think you're all going to like it. So moving on to the next slide. Yeah, so I would say the main thought about the workshop that we organized is that 19:24 improving DAO governance systems is a very difficult thing to do, because it's so ingrained with with the rest of the of the project, right. So for example, a large part of of a governance system resides on chain, which is like obviously very difficult to change, especially when you're a DeFi protocol that manages a couple of billion worth of value, but also like all of the processes that are being used by the committee community daily and like the data structures, it's very difficult to mess with them once they are in use. So it is very difficult, but that there is As a lot of potential to improve DAO governance, you just need to look on other, let's say layers of the stack, right? So at ducks, we really believe that there's a lot of low hanging fruits, obviously, on the UX level, right. So figuring out the right UX for the interface that people use to interact with these governance systems, but also on the levels of processes, policies and incentives, which are actually more malleable compared to, for example, the smart contracts. So let's go to the next slide. This is the name of the session we organize for the DAO governance design gem. Next slide, please. Yeah, and I'm still kind of amazed by this. So we were able to get 11 people in that room. It is a workshop based on design thinking. So it's like, it's a very intense, literally nine to five workshop. And you really need to make sure you don't invite too many people. So we wanted to invite between like seven to nine people. But then at the at the conference itself, there were some serendipity. And we ended up inviting two more people. Yeah, it's like a yeah, this is I think, I'm not sure whether we're ever going to have this, this, this kind of group in a in one room together, because this is like, for this particular niche. I think it's like a very impressive lineup. So to say, what's also nice is that after the workshop, I mean, we definitely connected with all of these people. And like, yeah, I could say that we have built a relationship with all of these people. Right now, we have like a telegram group, and we've seen each other over the week. So I kind of feel like it's going to be very valuable over the months to come as we tried to figure out ways to improve governance. Moving on to the next slide. Yeah, so the way we designed the workshop, it's basically all based on this, this design thinking model, which we call the Double Diamond strategy, or the double diamond model. And it's basically, you design the workshop program to constantly switch between divergent and convergent thinking. And in that process, you basically allow, you try to get the input of basically, everyone's minds, but then also you try to aggregate and cluster and create some kind of abstraction of that so that you can easily like, figure out what the most interesting problems and solutions are. Next slide. Yeah, so basically, that's what we did. We started out, of course, with like, intros and creating, like, some shared context to start with. But then also, yeah, at one point, we started to just writing down all of the challenges and frustrations also, that we faced when, when, when being part of a governance system, right, we put them on sticky notes, everyone took like, 15 minutes in silence to write everything down. And then we put all of it on a wall. And then we tried to get some some duplicates out with like, trying to cluster them a bit. So we tried to create categories and stuff. Next slide, please. Then, in that process, there was some kind of, there was some kind of abstraction forming where because you start to understand where the interests and were like the pain, the main pain points of the participants are. So there were like, some kind of groups were forming. And we ended up creating three groups. Next slide, please. The algo also shared some ideation methods from the design design thinking methodology framework. He's been doing this for a while, so that was definitely helpful. Next slide, please. 23:25 Yeah, there was the most fun part of the workshop. So basically, the three sub teams, they went out into the city, but also they stayed inside to jam together. So they basically selected a challenge statement. And they were going to do ideation. So some of us stayed inside of the venue, some of them actually, including myself, we just find a nice spot near the water. And we use like these designs as as whiteboards. It was a lot of fun, and we had a lot of good conversation. And we were able to really empathize with one another for example, I was on a team with someone who is pretty high up at urine so he's like, involved in figuring out how to scale that down. And urine is like very different data from from Maker because there was no urine foundation urine really started from scratch. So but in a way they Yeah, the forum. On a certain level, we're all dealing with the same challenges to the lady on the on the left, that's Laura from other internet, which is like a research collective, I'm really, really impressed by the work that they do in this space. They write like, research reports about communities and DAO, study the report on uniswap. And, and pull together for example, as well. And it's just yeah, so many insights. It's, so it was really interesting to spend the afternoon with these people. Next slide, please. Every now and then we got together as a group to do some intermediate pitching and also give each other some input and feedback. Next slide, please. And then of course final pitches where basically every team presented one concept that they that they worked on. That might be interesting to for for teams to pursue. Next slide. Yeah. So looping back to that, that first, that first exercise, we did the algo. And we still need to do some work to like, digitalize everything and then create like, I don't know, maybe a little slide deck or a spreadsheet to, to make available all of the, the challenges and the problems that we identified with this week has been very, very messy. It's a conference week. So we haven't been able to do that yet. But what's definitely true is that the top three, let's say, challenges that participants voted on were related to onboarding, accountability and participation. So the first one is more related to how can we design an onboarding process? For for Dallas? That is, that is not yet that's like beginner friendly, right? So that does not involve like, sending a whole bunch of resources to new entrants that that need a lot of contextual knowledge, for example. The second one, accountability is is also an interesting one. So how do we hold teams accountable for their work after their funds have been rewarded. So for example, once a research grant proposal has passed, or like a team budget proposal is best, what we'll see often in Dallas is that there's a lack of accountability processes, right? If you, for example, compared to web two, if you if there's like two companies who engage in some kind of collaboration, usually you start with a signed quote, and then you have like these payment terms and stuff that there's like a lot of like legal milestones that also create a nice accountability structure. And that's something that's lacking in dowsed, generally. And the third one is related to participation. And that's a bit more obvious. And that's also one that's very relevant to Maker, I think, is we incentivize quality governance contributions, and that it's not only like pure, yeah, let's say, a voting participation rate. But also, I don't know, engaging in discussion and maybe co authoring proposals, that kind of stuff. Next slide, please. Oh, yeah, and I was almost forgot to mention, obviously, we're going to share all of the outputs of the workshop, including all of those abstracted governance challenges that we surfaced, and we're going to share them on our Twitter, which is Maker ducks. But yeah, we'll we'll we'll share that later. Okay, so moving on to the first team, the first team was focused on onboarding and the challenge statement that they were focusing on is how might we empower interested new members to self select their role and contributions to DAO? So if we go to the next slide? Yes, we tried to just summarize it in one in one slide. Basically, the main, the main concept behind what they came up with is like a diamond shaped onboarding flow, which is kind of a funnel, where the very first steps of the onboarding flow is very, like noob, friendly, very narrow, and also agnostic to DAO. So basically, just a bunch of questions to understand where people's interests are, where they're, where their score, their skill set is, but also like, what their general availability is, those those questions will probably not be specific to any particular DAO. And then as this person moves on, and progresses through this funnel, the questions and steps and exercises become more personal, right, and they become more specific to dowse. 28:26 And then at one point, it also optimized for self selection, right. So the idea is that if a contributor or if an individual runs through this onboarding flow, then by answering the questions based on on their context, then it should be relatively easy to understand what might questions based on on their context, then it should be relatively easy to understand what might be a good role for them to participate in web three, and also which DAO might be a good fit. One, or the interesting thing about this is that it's designed to aim for quick wins somewhere in the first day, days or weeks of the process, where the individuals is kind of like, facilitated or supported to do like, some kind of contribution to DAO, which can be very minor. But yeah, that will definitely be like a rewarding and motivating thing. What I also liked about this is that it's a potential, a potential solution to the problem of the need for contextual knowledge. For example, if I were to send the Maker operational manual, which I really like, I mean, GovAlpha worked on it, I think it's like a very, it's a very good resource. But if I share it with someone who has zero context about Maker, then it's going to be very overwhelming, right. And I think that's a big, that's a big challenge. And in parallel to this, like onboarding funnel that they came up with, there should be like a DAO librarian, which is like a new role in Dallas where basically these individuals would be tasked with with guiding people that are in this onboarding flow. In case they want to learn more about a specific thing or when they get stuck and this DAO librarian is like very up to speed when it comes to Mmm, yeah, which resources are there and what's happening to Darwin where there might be any any, like, potential opportunities? Yeah, so this is the first concept that the team came up with. To be honest, this is just a concept, right? So it's not like anyone is working on this. But it's just to show that if you get a bunch of people together in a room, and get them focused on a challenge statement, they can actually whip up something in just a few hours, that might be feasible to implement for existing DAO systems as well. So that was really the the aim of the day to really experience that and also come up with some cool ideas that are applicable also to existing DAO systems, because I feel like a lot of people are always like talking about new DAO governance frameworks. So basically, starting from scratch, but that's, that's not really gonna, that's, that's not really going to be valuable for the existing governance systems out there. Okay, moving on to the next slide. Yeah, so the second team was focused on accountability. And the challenge statement that they were focusing on. Next slide, please, was how might we hold teams accountable for their work, once their grant or budget proposal has been approved by governments to a coin vote, for example. Moving on to the next slide, they basically came up with a process innovation, where they defined some requirements to proposals that require or that request some kind of treasury funds spending, they would need to have some kind of definition of success or definition of done that is written in an objective and measurable way. So the the authors of that proposal should should really spend time thinking about that, and also, explicitly include that in the in the proposal. And of course, of course, it's going to be based on the nature of the work. So if it's going to be like a product related thing, then it's easier to do a definition of done that's like part of the of the scope of the scrum framework. If it's more like a research project, or like a growth initiative, then a definition of success would be more fitting. And that's obviously more difficult to make it to define it in a measurable way. But it's still an ever proposal that exceeds a certain threshold, when it comes to the amount of funds that are being spent. 32:16 That proposal should also include the point and members of a committee of advisors. And the idea here is that the advisors can be individuals from other teams within the DAO. But it can also be part partly individuals from other adults that might need some kind of small compensation to be part of this committee. Next slide, please. And the idea is that after a governance vote, the Committee of Advisors is involved in in periodic progress reporting, but also evaluations of that particular team. And the concept here is that it's going to be similar to an Investment Board, which is kind of like, for example, if you're a web to investor, an investor board can it can be very valuable because it's kind of provides you with a safe space to talk about how things are really going. And it can help you figure out what where to go next, and how to how to deal with some challenges. But it also makes for for a nice accountability setup, because these these individuals are appointed as your Committee of Advisors, and they are like, associated with your team with your initiative, which will work. So yeah, if they are not happy with your work, then they will likely hold you accountable. And to make that more explicit, the Committee of Advisors could also be required to approve budgets. So budget tops are like payments, the periodic payments based on performance, and by doing so basically, these advisors will be staking their reputation by associating themselves with these with these themes or initiatives. So that makes for a nice little accountability setup. And yeah, obviously, this is like a process innovation. So it's the shouldn't be feasible to implement for existing DAO governance systems, including Maker, and it would be a nice way to Yeah, to to make for some kind of accountability process because I really do agree that accountability is is a is a difficult thing in the house. Moving on to the next slide. The third team was focused on participation. Next slide. And their challenge statement is simple. But very, yeah, this is obviously a big one, how might we incentivize quality contributions to DAO governance. Moving on to the next slide. This is actually the team that Dayton was on. And I really like what they've been what they've been working on. So the concept is called vested voting incentives. And it's kind of like this incentivization mechanism, where a proposal or where a protocol would have to provision some kind of funds for incentivizing governance participation. And the idea is that the distribution of this of this fund will be will be calculated based on gathered the work Like this equation that has a bunch of inputs. And that's not only going to be governance, or that's not going to be voting participation only or voting weight. So for example, voting weight in our case would be MKR token holding. But it could also be whether, to what extent this individual has co authored past proposals. It could it could be related to foreign participation, or communication. It could also be related to the other activity on proposals that actually test right so that you can kind of figure out to what extent the voting of this of this individual has, has been in sync with, yeah, where the where the votes have been going. These incentives would be vested over a year. And the rewards could be like in the in the native governance tokens could also be in stables or in NFS, or in anything else. Moving on to the next slide, please. Yeah, and my favorite part of this of this idea is that the is that these incentives will be split between the delegates and the delegators, which kind of makes for a very interesting mechanism where it also incentivizes delegation. So what basically happens is that if an individual feels like is he or she is not going to be active enough in governance to get to do well, in this incentivization scheme, then there is an incentive for his individual to delegate their tokens to a good delegate to an active delegate, because then this individual would still get some upside of the hard work of this delegate. Yeah. And we would basically, there will be incentivizing delegation, which is, yeah. Especially also at Maker, I feel like that's an unsolved problem. So this might be a very interesting thing to consider. I'm looking forward to continue talking about this page. And once the dust settles, but yeah. And what I like about this once again, is that it's also compatible with existing current voting systems, right? It's really like a, like an incentivization. mechanism, which should be feasible to implement on existing existing systems. Moving on to the next slide. 37:18 Yeah, so yeah, this is also a slide that's more fitting to the talk I gave at the conference, but I'm just going to walk through it. So the main takeaways that I shared in the talk is that we should prioritize DAO governance, data governance is pretty difficult. Because, yeah, it's very, like interconnected domain. And it's very hard to get stuff done as an individual team. So you really need to do crosscore Core Unit coordination, apply design thinking methodology. So when you're designing the UX, but also like designing incentivization mechanisms, or new processes, really try to have the various stakeholders in mind and try to empathize with them. And also, yeah, when you're thinking about this stuff, really tried to use this methodology, because it's really, it really succeeds in putting the various users center stage. Third point, I made this, we should innovate on process policy incentives and governance tooling levels. So I mean, I think we can all agree that there are better voting mechanisms than then coin voting. But the truth is that it's very difficult to change that up, especially for existing DAO systems. There's a lot of low hanging fruit, for processes, policies, and that kind of stuff. So let's just focus our efforts there. And then the last point I made is, was collaborate with cross DAO governance, big brains, because there's a lot of wisdom out there. And yeah, if you're on a certain degree, we're all dealing with similar issues. And there's a lot to learn from one another. And I'm really happy that yeah, as our Core Unit like ducks, we're now moving into the direction where I feel like we're collaborating with with other core units were more closely compared to like, half a year ago. And we got like, a lot of good, good connections out of out of this particular conference. So we're going to be able to leverage that. Yeah, there was basically the talk that I gave. So yeah, I think what would make sense now is to maybe just have a low key discussion on Yeah, any maybe there's any like suggestions on things that we could could do like any innovations from the aforementioned levels? That might be interesting for Maker and how we might coordinate that of course there's like a lot of things already happening behind the scenes but I mean, it could be interesting to open this up for for broader discussion at apogee and anarcho. Prose11 39:40 Awesome, thanks, guys. This was really cool to see all come together and it's pretty difficult to center the synthesize everything that takes place over a day. But yeah, I thought this did an excellent job of capturing really what we were jamming on and The problems were basically awesome. I see kianga were were recognized. So it gets their hand up, but you want to take it away? 40:07 Oh, yeah. Hi, I just want to say that was, that's terrific. And I love seeing our leadership for the broader ecosystem. We have a lot to offer. You know, we are We talk often a lot about our own challenges. And it's really, really valuable information. And I think what you've done here and you know, as I mentioned in the chat, I was just eavesdropping in another community orchid protocol, one of the participants presented and yeah, it really I think is going to pay a lot of dividends across a number of things. We're also talking, talking about regularly, in terms of our goals, growth brand, like all these things, this, taking what we do here every day. And what you've done. And being a leader and helping teach and convene leaders and other protocols in this way, is fantastic. So I just want to say thank you and share that. Prose11 41:11 Thank you. Appreciate that. And as a participant, I couldn't say thank you more than it's like that was a very cool workshop. And I know the connections I got and just having other brains to bounce problems off like, yeah, and Thiago to obviously for the facilitation. And he kept keep our our group in check as well. We were nerding out over a lot of governance things reminded P P us to be productive as well, which was important nudge. See, a lot of talk in the in the chat about, you know, a few of the different aspects. I don't know if anyone wanted to talk about those kind of accountability seems to spark a bit of a discussion. But we also don't have to go there. Robert 41:59 I can always throw my hat in the ring. Pablo 42:01 Hey, please do Yeah, Robert 42:03 i a i am all for accountability. And I think we need more of it and the DAO, the question is how much? Right because as I mentioned in the chat, this isn't intuitive. And it's it's not straightforward. And there's no best practices and working from a DAO. And I'm so glad to hear that, Dennis, that we're way ahead. I feel like we are, were huge DAO or figuring out some really hairy, nasty problems. And and I'm really excited for that at the same